Option X: take an aggressive lawyer and force the guy to take the wreck back, else sue him for fraud with some nice letters to his employer ?
You have my sympathy. The story sounds somewhat familiar.
Speaking personally my main concern would be the soundness of the airframe. Shabby is fine. Concerns about structural integrity or the setup of control linkages are not. You will probably survive an engine failure but not a control surface failure. If I were happy the airframe is safe then I would sort out the engine one way or another. If not, then I would personally sell it on as a project, being frank in my advertisement about the problems of which I was aware. I wouldn’t specifically set out to try to embarrass the original seller but you have a responsibility towards future buyers which I don’t think you can fulfil without doing so.
I wonder how dishonest sellers live with themselves. I suspect that some of the scammers – but alas not all – sleep badly forever more.
Very sorry to hear this Zorg, and very many thanks for posting it.
I’m surprised about the general condition, as last top overhaul is “only” about 250 hours (4 years) ago. But I understand that such wear is still possible, no?
Assuming the oil pump has been working (pressure has been ok) it is not possible other than via getting assistance by considerable corrosion, which would be due to lack of regular operation. You can accelerate the wear on a Lyco engine by running it flat out, but a non-turbo one will still make 1000+ hours. And thermal mismanagement (e.g. stupid leaning at full power) will only destroy the cylinders and their contents. The crankshaft etc will be perfectly happy at 100% power, and will make perhaps 10,000 hours before even reaching the overhaul limits 
Other parts, such as crank shaft, was not yet looked at yet. I understand that it could also be affected from cylinder problems (e.g., pitting).
Since the engine is in pieces (or about to be), you need to establish this. A scrap crankshaft is in the region of 10k alone.
Quick end of misery, can start over again (or quit aviation)
It would be tragic to quit aviation – a hugely fulfilling hobby – due to this, although it has happened a number of times – usually the result of a nonexistent prebuy check. Actually you would not be the first to have bought a dodgy plane from a famous airline pilot, or a famous GA personality… Confident high-achieving personalities make great salesmen (or conmen). Some previous stories already posted here. Let’s not consider this
If the plane fulfills your mission profile and is otherwise ok to fly, I would suggest getting the whole picture on the engine and then making a decision. Treat the cost of this exercise as the cost of not having done a prebuy by a competent person. After you pay the money out you will still have a plane to fly, and importantly you will have a known quantity up front. With all the “funny stuff” that goes on in GA, all the hangar queens (non flying planes), all the shysters, some logbook forgery (“missing logbooks” etc) if I bought another plane I would have the engine done by a reputable shop before even flying it.
Just because a “mechanic” does a prebuy is no assurance; I have seen photos of one plane inspected by a “mechanic” which turned out to be full of rust on expensive airframe parts, costing perhaps 10k to fix. Anybody considering any mechanic for a prebuy needs to get recommendations from people who used him previously.
Ultranomad also makes a very good point.
You need to open the whole engine up to get the full picture. If it is corrosion, it will likely also be a shagged camshaft, cam followers, and loads of other stuff. That level of oil loss from such a small engine is really bad.
take an aggressive lawyer and force the guy to take the wreck back, else sue him for fraud with some nice letters to his employer ?
That might work only if the seller made specific representations (e.g. oil consumption 1qt in 20hrs) and did so in writing. Otherwise, a used plane, or a car, is bought “as seen”. And letters to his employer would be very actionable by him against you He should have access to good legal advice via his union.
I wonder how dishonest sellers live with themselves
Having met more shysters in business and in GA than I had kentucky fried chickens in the 1970s, the answer is: perfectly well, I am sure And all useless mechanics really do think they are great.
Having met more shysters in business and in GA than I had kentucky fried chickens in the 1970s, the answer is: perfectly well, I am sure And all useless mechanics really do think they are great.
Alas I suspect you’re probably correct.
I’m starting to believe that the human factors of buying an aircraft is at least as important as a prebuy inspection. Even the best inspector will only pick up a certain proportion of faults.
Sounds to me like the seller has allowed his perceived status to influence his confidence in his mechanical capability.
Presumably you have addressed this issue directly with the seller and given him the opportunity to do something?
I once bought a share without pre-buy but the post buy inspection revealed defects that rendered the aircraft not airworthy. The seller voluntarily offered a full refund which I gratefully accepted.
Anyway, you’re in it now and if I were you I would confirm as best you can without full disassembly the state of the rest of the engine. If it turned out to be useable I would fit new cylinders and accept that I learnt something. Education is rarely free.
In the event the rest of the engine is in a poor state I would look for a complete second hand engine.
Aviathor wrote:
We’re talking about an amateur built airplane here, meaning that whatever state it is in, someone handy should be able to do something with it.
Yes, but work is time (or money depending on how you look at it), lots of tools, you need a place (a substantial amount of space actually), and you also actually need skills and know how. Unless you personally are able to fix it up, it doesn’t matter all that much if it’s certified or not. A plane is a plane after all.
kwlf wrote:
Speaking personally my main concern would be the soundness of the airframe. Shabby is fine. Concerns about structural integrity or the setup of control linkages are not. You will probably survive an engine failure but not a control surface failure. If I were happy the airframe is safe then I would sort out the engine one way or another. If not, then I would personally sell it on as a project, being frank in my advertisement about the problems of which I was aware. I wouldn’t specifically set out to try to embarrass the original seller but you have a responsibility towards future buyers which I don’t think you can fulfil without doing so.
I fully agree. I would go through the airframe, piece by piece to get a status on the integrity of it. Forget about cosmetics, only the structural integrity and the integrity of any systems is important. Chances are that the overall integrity is just fine, but you may need to change some bolts and hinges, linkages etc. The engine is another matter entirely, but one that is easily solved, just pop a new one in there and you will have a working engine for the rest of your life.
My point was that the plane is worth exactly zero as it is. There is no way to change that, not for you, and not for anyone else. If you don’t plan to fix it up and use it, then do as kwlf wrote. Getting a status of the integrity of the airframe will probably help you decide. I wouldn’t do anything with the engine, unless I decided to keep the airframe.
Zorg wrote:
About 30 hours ago the previous owner (himself) swapped stock pistons for new high-compression (9.1:1, P15 bore) pistons from Lycon. He did not hone the cylinders.
That is where the red alert comes on for me. So do I get this correctly: That owner took the engine to pieces HIMSELF, that is without a mechanic or someone who knows about engines in attendance? Who signed off that work??
You say that all the other engine work was done by a reputable shop. I suggest to get in touch which them and ask them to look at the engine where it is now if possible (or take it off, put it in your trunk and drive it there which is what I did with mine for overhaul) and give you a clear information what is going on with it. Then take it from there. You might find that all it takes is indeed some used or new cylinders professionally mounted and properly broken in and they will be fine.
If the engine is doubtful, I’d look for either a complete overhaul by that shop or a engine swap selling the current one for parts. You can also talk to the reputable engine shop about a swap, chances are they might have an engine around or know where to find one.
if the airplane does for you what it should, then I go with Peter: check it out properly and fix if anything needs fixing and then get a workable engine in front and enjoy it. You might want to consider having a lawyer talk to the previous owner about participating in some damage relief IF it turns out he has done work on the engine which he was not supposed to or which he did wrongly. That would give you some leverage.
O200 engines are very common and should not be that difficult to find as a replacement. I might ask someone who recently lost a Jodel in an accident whether he still has the reserve engine he had… if you want me to, let me know by PM.
My point was that the plane is worth exactly zero as it is.
Arithmetically that may be so but that is true for any plane with an engine up front cost is €X, which would actually fetch €X (i.e. basically anything which is 30+ years old, unless it has compensating factors which as pricey avionics) and whose engine is burning lots of oil, etc.
It’s same with any “old” car which is actually a great runner. If you find some rust, it is immediately worth nothing. But the car owes you nothing after all those years so the 500 quid you need to spend fibreglassing it over getting it welded up is just the running cost, and is much much cheaper than buying another car of comparable quality and you know where the skeletons are buried in your existing one, whereas any new one will have somebody else’s skeletons which they haven’t told you about.
In this case I salute Zorg for posting a personal story which has cost him so much money and which most people (including loads I know personally) would keep very quiet about. It is a lesson to anyone buying a plane that they need to follow the proper procedure.
But what is the proper procedure? A 2-day prebuy, perhaps… 1000 quid plus expenses, and before that you need to get recommendations on the mechanic doing it.
I wouldn’t get too hung up on the value of the airframe. My aircraft, for instance, would be almost worthless without an engine, but if/when I have to replace/overhaul the engine, I’ll just do it. An engine without an airframe might have significant monetary value, but it’s not any more useful than an airframe without an engine :-)
You mention there’s issues with the build quality – if they are things that you can fix yourself without spending tons of money, I would be inclined to get the engine fixed and not get hung up about the bare airframe’s value. At least the airframe is “the devil you know”, if you decided to to scrap/part out/sell cheap and get a different aircraft, there’s the risk of having this happen all over again.
Peter wrote:
It’s same with any “old” car which is actually a great runner
Yes, but that aircraft is obviously not a great runner Looking at the original options in the OP, it’s all about making something from nothing without actually doing anything to increase the value of the aircraft. It’s all about fiddling with the engine in the hope that this by some magic will reduce the losses when selling the aircraft. It may of course, but then you have to sell it with the same “smartness” the previous seller did. In the long run the engine isn’t really a problem at all. You can buy a new engine today, have it for 20 years, and it still is easy to sell at a very respectable price consider you treat it nice.
I would look at this differently, and therefore have different options at my disposal. Will I keep the aircraft or not? That is the first question I would ask myself. To answer that question I would go through the airframe piece by piece. Depending on the outcome of that, I would fix the engine, a complete overhaul or new, as well as fix up any snags with the airfame. It will cost some (+ time and work), but I would have a perfectly good aircraft. If I find that the airframe is gone. well, no engine is going to fix that anyway.
