I was talking to an approach controller the other day, regarding the usual business of the France → UK “dumping you onto London Info 124.6 and the implicit silent termination of your IFR clearance” business.
Her view was that a pilot must be always aware of the airspace class. And once you become OCAS, then this is to be expected.
Recalling my JAA IR training in 2011, they were actually training that sort of thing, with routes planned on the Jepp airway charts! That was already useless back then, and presumably was useless ever since Eurocontrol came in, maybe 1995? Maybe some “senior” pilots might remember, although they would be 70-80 years old.
When I started IFR in Europe in 2005, already none of that worked. You had to use various software tools (which in 2005 were truly crap – take a look at the Italian ASA routefinder for example) to develop a Eurocontrol/IFPS/CFMU-validated route, file that, and then the route actually flown was mostly ATC-tactical. This was inevitable due to the 30k+ routing rules applied to each flight, of which ~10k changed every day. The deviation from the filing varied according to where; e.g. LFBH-EGKA you might get the filed route, especially if you insist, but rarely so elsewhere.
And today nobody I know is planning that way. You develop the route (using Autorouter, Rocketroute, or Foreflight) and you fly “whatever”. Nobody studies the charts for the airspace class.
But the UK still pretends to be operating this principle that once you pass OCAS, you should expect the loss of the IFR clearance and the resulting loss of the entitlement to re-enter CAS later. Of course it suits the UK politically to do this because it is mostly Class G and if it was Class E+ one would be spending £££ on area control services, and UK ATC is mostly privatised, so this argument is circular.
Does any other country in Europe do something similar? From my extensive flying around Europe I am not aware of one; you can become OCAS for a bit but you can always get back in, and mostly without any ATC dialogue.
The other interesting point she made was regarding the ritual departure clearance phrase “Cleared to EGKA…” which is passed even if the destination is OCAS and in the UK so the “cleared to” is actually completely meaningless. Apparently the departure airport uses that form of words only if that airport is in CAS. I thought this is interesting, and as far as I could recall it is probably true!
Peter wrote:
From my extensive flying around Europe I am not aware of one; you can become OCAS for a bit but you can always get back in, and mostly without any ATC dialogue.
Yes. As in, this is exactly how it works around here IF the ATC unit does not change. At times jumping out of CAS means the next CAS will be run by a different set of controllers, in which case there are two options – either the “departing” ATC unit will pass you on to the next one, and you’re good to go, even if OCAS, OR they will hand you off to FIS (INFO), who will then coordinate your next transit / hand you over. There is a slight chance that once OCAS the next controller won’t clear you, but I’ve never had that happen to me; often the ATC people have an agreement with FIS (INFO) and will ‘conditionally’ clear you to pass but not talk to them, you stay on with FIS. Seems to happen on every other longer flight I do – initial climb clearance is to FL95, with FIS, although the airspace is owned by Approach; FIS then hands me over to Approach when I am around FL80 and off we go.
Fun fact, Slovak ATC can clear you from the northern border of Slovakia all the way to the southern border of Hungary, direct, and Hungarian ATC can clear you all the way from southern Hungary to the north border of Slovakia. Not a record DCT, at ~170nm, but considering the whole flight is ~250nm, not too shabby.
Next flight down south I will file without passing FL95 till south of the border, maybe it will make ATCs life easier.
The relative lack of input is really interesting.
Peter wrote:
The relative lack of input is really interesting.
Maybe this subject has been beaten to death already? Like you, I am not aware of any other country in Europe that will silently terminate a clearance when you leave controlled airspace.
It was more the thread subject: should a pilot be airspace class aware on a Eurocontrol IFR flight?
The answer is obviously YES for departures and arrivals OCAS, in cases where you have no ATC clearance. But enroute?
Peter wrote:
It was more the thread subject: should a pilot be airspace class aware on a Eurocontrol IFR flight?The answer is obviously YES for departures and arrivals OCAS, in cases where you have no ATC clearance. But enroute?
I’m still not sure what exactly you mean by a “Eurocontrol IFR flight”. All IFR flight plans in Europe have to be sent to Eurocontrol. Unless you simply mean an IFR flight for which no flight plan has been filed.
But yes, the pilot has to be aware of the airspace class also enroute as in class G the pilot is responsible for obtaining permission to cross any D/R/P-areas — and for separation obviously.
Also just because someone is being controlled doesn’t mean he has the right of way in class E when encountering VFR traffic, even if Ryanair believes this to be the case. So, yes, of course you should be aware of the airspace you’re in.
Inkognito wrote:
Also just because someone is being controlled doesn’t mean he has the right of way in class E when encountering VFR traffic, even if Ryanair believes this to be the case. So, yes, of course you should be aware of the airspace you’re in.
The same is true also for class D. (Although in class D all traffic should be known.)
How is separation relevant to a pilot?
If you say airspace class is relevant, use an example of an airline pilot. Then it becomes self evident nonsense.
In Class E If you are under IFR in VMC or IMC you are controlled. If you are VFR you must be VMC and 300m above or below clouds and 1500m horizontally..In VFR it is your job to see and avoid. So in VFR you must be awarebof the airspace you are in but in IFR there is not a lot of difference between Class E and class D unless you are in VMC when you.also have a certain duty to see and avoid. But the same would also apply in class D.. OCAS, at least in France, above 3000ft you should maintain 2 way comms with ATS and you should be flying according to seli circular rules so you would have a right to expect that VFR traffic is either 500’ above or below you.
