Expect vectors without getting any vector

Isn’t that what I wrote (“… with the exception of NW DCT EHBK and GUL DCT EHBK”) ?

Yes it is. Just wanted to make the connection to the RAD document which AFAIAC has been a real eyeopener and the understanding of which has made it much easier for me to file flightplans.

@tomjnx, I can only speak from experience because I have not been trained in Europe (except from my US/Europe differences training), I have no references other than the RAD documents which work just fine in France, and I am not legalistic. I am very eager to learn “the correct way” of doing this.

I’ve used three ways of generating or submitting IFR flightplans:
1) EuroFPL
2) Olivia – BRIA (in France)
3) autorouter (very little experience)

In the first two cases I always get a full list of waypoints. From EuroFPL by e-mail, or in the second case from the briefer.

I always file with IFPS REROUTE ACCEPTED. In other words AFAIU IFPS can potentially change my FPL, and in such case I must know about it so I can comply/cancel/re-file, ’cause clr/del/TWR will certainly not inform me of the changes, and in the case of NORDO I need to know what my FPL is… Simply asking ATC is not an option.

An approved FPL is what has gone through IFPS processing, automated or manual, and been accepted. “IFPS REROUTE ACCEPTED” increases your chances of getting a FPL approved (potentially with changes).

I am interested in hearing from others about how they manage the differences between what they file and what they get. Do you just assume that what you filed is what Eurocontrol has on record as your route?

Another thing I would be interested in knowing more about is how significant the changes to the FPL route the IFPS can actually make.

2) Olivia – BRIA (in France)

Can you tell me how to get that waypoint list, please. I have filed a few IFR plans using Olivia, and never got any waypoint list back

I always file with IFPS REROUTE ACCEPTED

This replacement/insertion of STARs happens whether or not you add IFPSRA, AFAIK.

and in the case of NORDO I need to know what my FPL is

Which you do… up to the STAR connection point. You cannot know at flight planning time what STAR you will use, as the active runway isn’t known yet.

So the NORDO case needs some grain of salt, too.

Simply asking ATC is not an option.

Huh? We’re discussing the case where the radio is fully working, which hopefully is >99% of the time. So you say asking ATC to clarify what routing they expect is not an option even when the radios are fully working?

I just don’t understand your argument. Are you making arguments for the arguments sake?

This sounds like the problems one gets when flying a “systems” based aircraft i.e. Garmin 1000 with integrated autopilot. No matter how sharp the pilot is you are always liable to be in a situation where the autopilot is doing the flying (and the thinking). I don’t have that problem – no autopilot.

Which you do… up to the STAR connection point. You cannot know at flight planning time what STAR you will use, as the active runway isn’t known yet.

If you allow IFPS to change your route, then unless you managed to pick up the amended one (which may be just before departure) you don’t know the route to fly in case of comms failure. Unlikely I know, but… I never use that option.

I don’t have that problem – no autopilot.

True but you pay a high price for that – a cockpit workload about 10x higher

In other words AFAIU IFPS can potentially change my FPL, and in such case I must know about it so I can comply/cancel/re-file, ’cause clr/del/TWR will certainly not inform me of the changes, and in the case of NORDO I need to know what my FPL is… Simply asking ATC is not an option.

Filling a flight plan and getting ACK does not imply a clearance. You get your real flight plan when you receive your clearance, before takeoff or IFR pickup. Therefore there is no way to miss a flight plan amendment. Sometimes these happen a few minutes before off block because somebody involved realizes that it should be changed for whatever operational reason.

Instead of relying on Eurocontrol to fix your flight plan (which they do on a best effort basis only), you can just make sure to file a valid flight plan. That is not difficult with today’s technology.

We’ve had users ask for that waypoint list as EuroFPL sends out before takeoff. It would be technically trivial to implement in autorouter but I still don’t see the real value of it. I think it’s much more useful to make sure IFPS accepts what you plan and thereby have matching briefing packs.

The waypoint list is handy for loading up the GPS.

One can normally pick it up easily on a phone, because it is only a small email.

I normally get it from the briefing options on the router, but this is difficult once one is off the internet connection. In that case, a simple text email is really good to have.

I thought you upgraded to Windows Phone? The briefing pack PDF should display on any modern phone and contains the waypoint list. I open it on my 2 mobile devices before I start the engine to make sure it’s downloaded and displayed. The formatting in a PDF is so much better than in a text message.

However, if people really want this, we can add it. Just not convinced yet

This sounds like the problems one gets when flying a “systems” based aircraft i.e. Garmin 1000 with integrated autopilot. No matter how sharp the pilot is you are always liable to be in a situation where the autopilot is doing the flying (and the thinking). I don’t have that problem – no autopilot.

I actually don’t get the connection between this and your conclusion. Why would it have been different with a Garmin 430 and no autopilot?

Can you tell me how to get that waypoint list, please. I have filed a few IFR plans using Olivia, and never got any waypoint list back

I actually get the validated route from the briefer – that’s why I added BRIA. Olivia does not give any feedback. I have only used it for submitting a few times where I could not get any route validated by EuroFPL.

Which you do… up to the STAR connection point. You cannot know at flight planning time what STAR you will use, as the active runway isn’t known yet.

A STAR is not necessarily linked to a specific runway. There may be a transition which is not part of the STAR (initial approach).

I just don’t understand your argument. Are you making arguments for the arguments sake?

I just do not understand your tone. We are amongst civilised people – or so I thought. If my posts annoy you, @tomjnx, you are free not to ignore me instead of ruining your day. I understand you are taking an extremely pragmatic approach, but I am interested in understanding how the system is really supposed to work, and the real meaning of the information made available to me. Call that an academic interest, pedantic, legalistic or whatever you want. Sue me. I am curious.

The only point I was trying to make is that I want to know the FPL route (not the one submitted/filed) before departing. The main reason for that is NORDO (although rare), and AFAIK I am required to carry the FPL on the flight (I suppose that means the potentially amended FPL). So far in Europe my departure clearances have never contained anything else than instructions to join some wpt on a SID or an initial heading before vectors to the first wpt of my en-route segment from CLR-DEL/TWR/APP (after multi-directional departure rwy 05 turn left heading 230, join radial nnn ORL), and nothing else. Never have I received a departure clearance containing any parts of the en-route portion.

On several occasions I have gotten close to the last point of the en-route portion (somewhat like the original poster) and queried ATC, just to get the STAR I was expecting anyway because that was what I got back from IFPS/EuroFPL. If that is already part of your route, and you are supposed to know it, why spend bandwidth asking ATC?

Whether using a G1000/G430/GNS650 or other gizmos coupled to an autopilot is irrelevant. With all shortcuts you will get anyway, you will have to amend your GPS FPL…