Mandatory / minimal IFR equipment for Europe

So in effect you need IFR approved GPS to operate IFR in Germany? UK still seems to allow old style BRNAV, at least you see CAA IR tests launching in old piston twins with old style BRNAV.

RobertL18C wrote:

So in effect you need IFR approved GPS to operate IFR in Germany?

Legally, anything with a “BRNAV” approval will be acceptable. In practical terms, you will hear things like “callsign XYZ proceed direct to BOMBI” (or “DS412” or even “12 miles final runway 21”). None of these waypoints is defined by VOR/DME and you will not even get the coordinates for some of them other than from the AIP.
In real life you will often be given direct-to clearances to waypoints which are outside your VOR and DME range even if you could define them via VOR and DME. If you keep saying “unable to comply” to ATC, they will have to clear you from VOR to VOR which will take away most of the benefits of IFR flying because your routing will be twice as long as necessary.

Great discussion! And follow on question: how important is WAAS/EGNOS in Europe (or will become)?

GARMIN 100 VFR GPS

Any bids?

WhiskeyPapa wrote:

Any bids?

Certainly not, but to me this has some sentimental value: When I had just finished (really only a few days before) my CPL and multi-engine rating, I was lead into temptation to do an illegal commercial flight to Bordeaux and back in a Pa44. Of course I couldn’t resist (after all, almost 6 free hours of multi-engine IFR time were highly appreciated) but got a little worried over the navigational capabilities of that very worn-down flying school aircraft. Luckiliy I was able to borrow a Garmin 100 from a flying buddy who had just imported this unit from the States for the price of a small car. So this thing really saved my first “big” flight ever.

KNS-80 is still fine to use as VOR and DME as separate functions. If topic starter wants a GNS and there is sufficient place for the KNS-80 it would be ok to keep it in place instead of install of a seperate VOR and seperate DME.

how important is WAAS/EGNOS in Europe (or will become)?

I recommend a search on

LPV

because that is basically what it is about (EGNOS; WAAS is in the USA).

I don’t have LPV yet because, from my UK non-Schengen perspective, there are very few airports which I can fly to and which have LPV but don’t have other approaches especially ILS. I would look at fitting it seriously (about £30k for a non botched solution) if Shoreham finally got LPV.

at least you see CAA IR tests launching in old piston twins with old style BRNAV.

Sure, but that is because

• airline pilot students don’t need to know anything about flying from A to B
• airline pilot students don’t need to know anything about GA
• ATPL schools fly mostly OCAS, with some Class D, and with brief pop-ins into Class A
• if the schools used modern nav, the customers might realise the stuff they are being taught is close to worthless
• the ATPL schools sometimes use out of date GPS databases, to make sure the student doesn’t get asked to use the GPS on the test

Just my opinion, you realise

Peter wrote:

Just my opinion, you realise

And very UK biased! With EASA and so on they will need to change this quickly even there.

…airline pilot students don’t need to know anything about GA

This is true of course. The main difference between airline and (commercial) GA is that GA pilots are required to service the toilet themselves (see the Honda thread about this) and they don’t teach this in the course.

Peter wrote:

ATPL schools fly mostly OCAS, with some Class D, and with brief pop-ins into Class A

This is strictly UK only stuff. Is there class A airspace anywhere else in Europe (or the world)?

Peter wrote:

if the schools used modern nav, …

Maybe this is again UK special. However I recall seeing entire fleets of DA42s painted in the colours of UK flight schools. AFAIK there is no DA42 without a glass cockpit…

Peter wrote:

the ATPL schools sometimes use out of date GPS databases, to make sure the student doesn’t get asked to use the GPS on the test

Around here examiners would refuse to take a test on an aeroplane with an out of date database. Some of them at least…

what_next wrote:

Is there class A airspace anywhere else in Europe (or the world)?

In the US between 18’000 ft and FL600.

Lots in UK, a vast amount of totally useless Class A in Italy, and a bit in France.

Then you have loads over the Atlantic, which is why IFR (IR) is a practical necessity for flying to the USA.

However I recall seeing entire fleets of DA42s painted in the colours of UK flight schools. AFAIK there is no DA42 without a glass cockpit…

I was picking up on Robert’s comment on what I thought were old piston twins.