“One traffic cancelled IFR and went for low VFR on a tour flight”
IiRC there was no such thing as IFR at the time.
But as always the same facts can be used to confirm ones own beliefs.
I was referring to one from 1998, between Beech & Cardinal, not the grand canyon one from the old days
gallois wrote:
IiRC there was no such thing as IFR at the time.
Certainly there was! But at least one of the airliners were on a “VFR on top” clearance which means that while still IFR it was responsible for its own separation from other aircraft and could choose cruising level at will, while being obliged to maintain VMC at all times.
I am talking about something that happened I really can’t remember when but I think it was perhaps in the 40’s pr 50’s bit could have been the 30’s.
The accident was the prime instigator of both airways and IFR.
A friend ex BOAC pilot then Ferry pilot and bomber pilot during WW2 used to tell a wonderful story of how a group of RAF pilots went off to Canada (Ganda?) to pick up 6 Hudson bombers. When one questioned how they were going to navigate back to UK without nav equipment the squadron leader said just follow me. So they all took off went straight into cloud and got split up. All six landed back in various parts of the UK. My friend ended up in Cornwall, almost as far as you could get from the planned destination of Prestwick.
A chapter entitled the 7 Hudsons apparently appears in a book which no one can remember the title. You might ask why 7 Hudsons, well my friend was the other Hudson.
So sorry A-A to disagree with you, there was no IFR at the time of the accident I am talking about.
gallois wrote:
The accident was the prime instigator of both airways and IFR.
A friend ex BOAC pilot then Ferry pilot and bomber pilot during WW2 used to tell a wonderful story of how a group of RAF pilots went off to Canada (Ganda?) to pick up 6 Hudson bombers. When one questioned how they were going to navigate back to UK without nav equipment the squadron leader said just follow me. So they all took off went straight into cloud and got split up. All six landed back in various parts of the UK. My friend ended up in Cornwall, almost as far as you could get from the planned destination of Prestwick.
A chapter entitled the 7 Hudsons apparently appears in a book which no one can remember the title. You might ask why 7 Hudsons, well my friend was the other Hudson.
So sorry A-A to disagree with you, there was no IFR at the time of the accident I am talking about.
Except the few KC135 in Brize, RAF don’t fly controlled IFR or airways, the aircrafts may not be equipped for “UK Class A CAS flying”
RAF insutrument training as of today is called “cloud flying” which is basically flying IFR in IMC off airways OCAS
@MattL would know better how they fly IFR and if Mil ATC apply any sort of separation or not…
The whole Air Mobility force of C130, A400M, Voyager and C17 flies the airways structure just like any commercial traffic.
Military area radar is fully integrated with NATS at Swanwick these days as well.
https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/stations/raf-u-swanwick/
There are various TACAN based routes and radar crossing corridors as well, it’s all in ENR6 in the military AIP
gallois wrote:
So sorry A-A to disagree with you, there was no IFR at the time of the accident I am talking about.
Sorry, I thought you were referring to the Grand Canyon collision.
The question about when IFR as a concept came into being is interesting. I googled a bit and it appears to have been in the 30s, both in the USA and Europe.
MattL wrote:
The whole Air Mobility force of C130, A400M, Voyager and C17 flies the airways structure just like any commercial traffic
Thanks, yes I understand those would fly IFR like any commercial traffic and they would fly IFR internationally anyway…
How about IFR flying in fast jet trainers? I guess that is still uncontrolled IFR cloud flying?
Slightly off topic, but maybe still interesting:
SERA.5000(g)
Except where otherwise indicated in air traffic control clearances or specified by the competent authority, VFR flights in level cruising flight when operated above 900 m (3 000 ft) from the ground or water, or a higher datum as specified by the competent authority, shall be conducted at a cruising level appropriate to the track as specified in the table of cruising levels in Appendix 3. VFR flights in level cruising flight when operated above 900 m (3 000 ft) from the ground or water, or a higher datum as specified by the competent authority, shall be conducted at a cruising level appropriate to the track as specified in the table of cruising levels:….
My bold. In Spain and Portugal the semi-circular system is N-S instead of E-W. So odd alts/levels on a route from 090 to 269 degrees. Wasn’t this also the case in France and Italy?
Italy yes. France I don‘t think so.
