Getting transits through French military areas and the Paris TMA

gallois wrote:

Maybe NATS has passed on a message that this guy is trouble:)

That is the only explanation :) as French controllers don’t seem to be gaggling in pilot forums or social media (unlike UK )

Or maybe Peter is becoming French now (all day along “râleur” on every flight )?

Peter wrote:

The most likely conclusion I can make is that while some controllers simply cannot speak even the most basic conversational English (isn’t ELP4 that?) and don’t want to get into situations where this would become apparent.

The “interaction” criterium for LP4 is that “Responses are usually immediate, appropriate, and informative. Initiates and maintains exchanges even when dealing with an unexpected turn of events. Deals adequately with apparent misunderstandings by checking, confirming, or clarifying.” (My emphasis.)

Compare this with the corresponding criterium for LP3: “Responses are sometimes immediate, appropriate, and informative. Can initiate and maintain exchanges with reasonable ease on familiar topics and in predictable situations. Generally inadequate when dealing with an unexpected turn of events.” (My emphasis.)

Honestly, one thing that may not be very clear from a UK perspective is that most of us not native speakers from the continent have more occasions to be in contact with English spoken with US accent (movies, songs etc). It is not uncommon for me to hear of people who suddenly realise how unitelligible a generic UK accent is for them, even though they have been watching american movies without subtitles for years. That is just how it is, and there is not much we can do about it, but it might explain why some controllers are confused when talking to you.
Try pretending you are Chandler from Friends or something like that next time :)

I am sure they understand the request; that is clear from the response, which is “I will ask” (but doesn’t) or “ask the next sector” (where you get the same).

Or you get “active military airspace, not possible” meaning “I will not even ask them” and in that case I reckon the civilian controller is afraid to harrass the military controller. A total lack of coordination between units. This aspect gets a lot better in the far south east.

Of course it cannot be proven; it is merely very obvious to anybody older than about 5… “I am not buying another ice cream; ask mother”.

It is not just about understanding the actual words. It is a sort of uneasy feeling that can arise when speaking a foreign language that one is not comfortable with while facing a native speaker with an accent one is not accustomed to. But anyway, we are getting off topic here. French controllers could be better at speaking English, but at the same time French airspace is in real life simpler than it looks on the charts.

There may be something to the thoughts on English Language proficiency, I have actually had one occasion where I contacted the frequency for a RA in English – no response – then went back to the the FIS and was told they are there so went back to frequency and heard a guy talking in French to the controller, so tried again in English – nothing – then switched to French and immediate response & cleared through… but this is once in 15 or so years…

However I am still wondering if IFR/VFR might also make a difference – anyone?

Regards, SD..

It may do, but VFR is “hazardous” because while French ATC fairly routinely clear you through controlled airspace, they are not obliged to do so with RAs etc, and indeed generally do not, so you still need to be totally airspace-aware and avoid those yourself.

Whereas if you were IFR (I mean, in the Eurocontrol system, with a proper IFR FP, and not just a “pop-up”) ATC would take care of that for you.

One data point here.

It looks like one can get transits of some of the mil areas on a weekend. But not the Paris airspace.

Coincidently with the posts of @johnh abording the subjects of the military areas in France and especially in the southwest, I am planning an IFR training flight from Biarritz to Agen.

Both foreflight and autorouter proposes a specific IFR route :
LFBZ – BZ – LGH – AG – LFBA

LGH is a VOR/DME installed on the Mont de Marsan airfield.
Mont de Marsan is a military airfield currently hosting a drone squadron and a fighter testing squadron.
Formerly, it was one of the nuclear military bases hosting the Mirage IV A fighter-bomber.

Due to this specificity, there is a prohibited area (P35) centered on the airfield.
Formerly, the P35 was about 10nm radius, from ground to FL195.
For the last 10 years-ish, it was reduced to a 3nm radius, from ground to FL55.

What’s interesting, is that the proposed IFR route gets an eurocontrol validation even if filed at FL030, which would gets you right into the P35 .

I know some prohibited area are authorized to IFR penetration (The Golfech nuclear plant “P3” can be penetrated by IFR aircraft flying the runway 29 approach in Agen), but I don’t think each and every P area can be.

So what do you think would happen if I file this route below FL055.
Would have I an amended clearance after filing ? before takeoff ? Would I be rerouted in flight ?
What would happen if I have a radio failure after takeoff in IMC ?

Maybe I will try it, without actively flying it, just to see what happens