Malibuflyer wrote:
- Airlines need protected airspaces for CDOps around airports. In Germany we have regular near misses between gliders and airliners at airports where part of the descent is happening in unprotected airspace. Yes, the glider has the way of right but airline pilots (imho correctly) claim that it is simply impossible to avoid a glider while preparing for the approach, etc.
All bar one airline pilot commenting on the proposals has indicated that there is currently no issue achieving this at present.
Also traffic densities in Germany are far higher than in Ireland. The chance of randomly bumping into someone else is remote here, and given that these operations are under radar control outside the CTR, there really isn’t any chance of bumping the one or two pieces of traffic that might be within 20nm of the airport. (A Dublin ATCO once told me that they consider having 7 aircraft in their CTA/CTR being extremely busy!)
Malibuflyer wrote:
- I wouldn’t take the fact that the airlines do not show up in public hearings as a sign that they do not want the change. First I would expect they have other means of communication to the IAA and second why should they show up and ask questions if they get 120% of what they want?
I didn’t comment about them not turning up at the meetings. That I understand. I comments that they didn’t make a written submission. They are well capable of making a submission if they perceive an advantage to them. If they were to be making submissions (written or oral) outside the public consultation process and as such outside public scrutiny and the authority were to place weight on such submissions while ignoring those under public scrutiny, well that would be a resignation issue. It’s a public process for a reason. A secret back door to avoid public scrutiny would be a scandal that would have serious implications for all.
Malibuflyer wrote:
- As you can read in many threads also on this forum, circular CTRs are really not a good idea.
No one really is bothered by the loss of circular CTRs. In fact many suggested that the edge of the CTRs be chopped off to make them more square. The issue is that the circles have been expanded into squares rather than contracted into rectangles/squares (or rather rectangles with rounded ends which is what was really suggested).
dublinpilot wrote:
Also traffic densities in Germany are far higher than in Ireland. The chance of randomly bumping into someone else is remote here, and given that these operations are under radar control outside the CTR, there really isn’t any chance of bumping the one or two pieces of traffic that might be within 20nm of the airport. (A Dublin ATCO once told me that they consider having 7 aircraft in their CTA/CTR being extremely busy!)
Here’s the Class E and B complex around LAX, also with a little C Airspace for one airport and the smaller Class D airports, showing the traffic 5 minutes ago. You can discern the airliners as lines of traffic from right to left. It is their predictability that makes it work, density is not so important if they’re in lines.
Looks like at least 5 people decided lunch on Catalina Island was a good idea 
Silvaire wrote:
It is their predictability that makes it work
Exactly. As long as things are predictable, there are no problems. Come to think of it, it’s purely a entropy problem
After reading dublinpilots post, I don’t really see the big problem. Obviously they want to modernize the airspace, make things easier to predict and assure that specs for future navigation systems are met. They may have stumbled a bit, and things have perhaps gone a bit too fast, but are there any signs that this will not be fixed? IMO no, because they have indeed showed they are capable of doing changes. On the other hand, nothing will change for the better for the GA community without a united, active and persistent pressure.
LeSving wrote:
After reading dublinpilots post, I don’t really see the big problem. Obviously they want to modernize the airspace, make things easier to predict and assure that specs for future navigation systems are met. They may have stumbled a bit, and things have perhaps gone a bit too fast, but are there any signs that this will not be fixed? IMO no, because they have indeed showed they are capable of doing changes. On the other hand, nothing will change for the better for the GA community without a united, active and persistent pressure.
I’m not sure I agree. It’s fairly massive amounts of airspace, even for some airports that have none of the type of traffic that they are trying to benefit, and some with almost no traffic full stop. Also, from reading the feedback and the IAA response to it, whilst they address a few points, it’s overwhelmingly dismissive in my opinion. As I said earlier in the thread, if there is good access to the CAS then it shouldn’t be an issue, but when so many of the airports controlling the airspace are procedural only and won’t let an aircraft in if there might be another aircraft approaching, then this takes away a lot of space.
Hence united, active and persistent pressure from the GA community is a necessity. It can’t be IAOPA, it has to be something with a substantial broader perspective and acceptance IMO. Besides, how are they going to finance CAS when there is no traffic there? Clearly things will have to change no matter what, but not necessarily for the better if the GA community do not get properly involved.
The latest proposals were published last week.
You can see them here
They take away the square CTRs and replace them with massive new CTAs. Needless to say reaction isn’t positive!
They have interestingly also decided not to publish the responses to the previous consultation, nor their reponse to the issues raised. Presumably that’s becuase the reaction was overwhwllingly negative, and it would make it blatently obvious that they weren’t listening to the airspace users.
Pirho wrote:
Are the teams meetings open to all or is it invite only?
dublinpilot wrote:
They are open to all. Though I suspect the format for the next one will change in order to screen and control the questions so they filter out awkward questions!The link will most likely be published on the IAA website. If I remember at the time, I’ll post a link to it here.
The Teams meeting is this Thursday 21 Oct from 13:00-14:30 Irish time (so that’s 12:00-13:30 UTC).
Teams meeting link
Interestingly no proposal is shown in the latest version for Shannon, Kerry & Cork. It’s not clear if that means that now no changes are propsed there and previous proposals are withdrawn, or if they are aren’t revising the previous proposals and they continue to stand. I guess we’ll know more after the Teams meeting.
Cheers! Will try and make it.
