@gallois, apologies, I realized I wasn’t very clear in my question, and mixed up weather condition and flight rules.
Here is more details on the situation:
I had an IFR flight plan for early morning departure, but got a 7h CTOT delay. I called euro control to understand but they told me because of military exercise shutting down large zone and atc personnel shortage, they couldn’t accommodate my flight until mid afternoon.
Weather was MVFR, broken cloud, and I could see layer was not thick as forecast, so I canceled IFR and re-filed VFR, assuming, as I had done before, I could get above the layer, and switch to IFR on the fly close to destination to do an approach if necessary.
I departed, but the broken clouds closed and I ended up below the layer in Golf airspace (most of my route had Golf Airspace except a few Echo zone).
So i flew around 1500ft (lower than my typical confort zone, but with surface in sight and GPS track planned ensuring clearance in these flat area).
In the UK, I would have just crossed the layer in G space and ended up VFR on top, but here in France I thought I needed 2 way communication before I can do that.
Unfortunately, the first FIS on my way, just after departure that I typically talk to, was completely silent. So i ended up below the layer around 1500ft quite longer than I wished until I managed to reach the next FIS, explained i was below a layer and wanted to climb through, which they approved and I finished the flight in VMC on top comfortably, and they switched me IFR close to my destination to fly the approach.
I am still a bit unclear and uncomfortable in having put myself to have to fly VFR (in MVFR condition) for so long, and wonder if I should/could have crossed the layer in this case earlier.
But my conclusion from previous answers, is that it would have been fine to climb though, as the 2 way is only required for cruise and here it would have been departure.
The one difference with the UK is that, would the layer have been thicker, I would not have been able to stay in IMC, for ex at 3000ft without 2 way (in this case because that would have been cruise)
That’s interesting, you are asking if you can fly IFR with no filed/active flight plan? or fly IFR on flight plan with no radio contact? 
My understanding, in Frnace, only Heli-Meds are allowed to depart and cruise (legally) under IFR OCAS without India FPL
roznet wrote:
But my conclusion from previous answers, is that it would have been fine to climb though, as the 2 way is only required for cruise and here it would have been departure.
It’s called auto-info, it’s self-explanatory IFR on A/A is allowed in France in terminal phase for departure & arrival without radio contact with ATS (FIS/ATC), however, you need an active flight plan with alerting service (sort of Basic Service where you get SAR triggered on your active flight plan: you need to establish radio or phone contact before EOBT+15min on takeoff or before ETA+45min on landing) !
Strictly speaking radio contact is not required on departure, arrival, circuit…for IFR and NVFR, these can be done under Auto-Info, this is what allows night or instruments flights in terminal phase without ATS, for IFR/NVFR OCAS cruise phase radio contact with ATS is required when ‘you are away from aerodrome’: Surface-S (1kft agl/3kft amsl) is treated as ’IFR RMZ’ and VOR-VOR routes are ‘NVFR RMZ’
Now the fun part, an FPL with Alerting Service is required for IFR/NVFR flights in France, however, there some tolerances regarding getting flight plan activated in air or filing airborne with some caveats, similar to IFR OCAS on 2000 (clouds or no clouds), there are other gotcha, you also have to be careful with VFR OCAS on 7000 toward open water (outside 1:15 glide or 12nm), night cross-country (especially VOR/VOR route or Echo TMA) and cross-borders…without having active flight plan, radio contact and proper transponder code
Without RMZ, there is no clear cut between terminal phase and cruise phase for radio contact in Golf, 50ft above runway? 1nm final? circuit? 2nm ‘ATZ’? 5nm AD ‘RMZ’? Surface-S ‘RMZ’ (1kft agl/3kft amsl)? MSA or MEA? 12nm for NVFR XC FPL? 30nm for IFR SID? in places like LFAO, you will only receive FIS on radio after passing 5000ft…
So reading the last message now my conclusion is that I was right not to cross the layer.
I guess my question in your terms: after departing VfR with vfr flight plan not yet activated (had not managed to talked to anyone yet), when can I switch to IFR in G space and enter IMC… and so in that case: need two way com
in Frnace, only Heli-Meds are allowed to depart and cruise (legally) under IFR OCAS without India FPL
Not before heard of a flight plan itself making IFR legal or not legal. There was a case in the US many years ago – not relevant here.
I think this is getting highly esoteric, and quite confusing. I can’t follow quite a lot of the text…
In practical terms you will struggle to get an IFR clearance (for an onward flight in the Eurocontrol system) unless there is an appropriate flight plan in the system. No country in Europe can handle that situation properly, though some are less bad than others when it comes to constructing one – usually after they accidentally lost it.
But having filed one makes no difference to legality of your flight post-departure and before you collect the IFR clearance. Until that point, you are a “VFR flight” (whether or not you are in IMC) and have to behave like one otherwise you might get busted.
roznet wrote:
when can I switch to IFR in G space and enter IMC
On Z-FPL departure in Golf with no ATS, I am dead sure you can become IFR/IMC at 50ft agl (activate on start-up or when MSA/MEA), however, @gallois or others have different opinions on this…
On V-FPL or no FPL in Golf, I really don’t have an answer? legally, you are allowed 1min inside clouds under VFR on PPL to make 180 RateOne turn? I am sure you can do the same to climb shallow 500ft layer at 500fpm to ‘remain VMC’ on top?
If you need more than few minutes to find VMC, well you request change to IFR for cruise above to MSA/MEA, while this work in single sector, you should not expect to fly across whole country or all eurocontrol like this
If you are doing this to ‘play slots’ or ‘avoid paying’, you need to keep things to yourself
Peter wrote:
Not before heard of a flight plan itself making IFR legal or not legal.
SERA.4001(b)(3): “A flight plan shall be submitted prior to operating … any flight within or into areas, or along routes designated by the competent authority, to facilitate the provision of flight information”.
Some competent authorities use this provision to require flight plans for IFR OCAS – e.g. in Sweden you must have one above 5000’ and also within RMZs.
Peter wrote:
In practical terms you will struggle to get an IFR clearance (for an onward flight in the Eurocontrol system) unless there is an appropriate flight plan in the system. No country in Europe can handle that situation properly, though some are less bad than others when it comes to constructing one – usually after they accidentally lost it.
In most cases, you can swap VFR FPL into IFR FPL with simple request and +500ft in your cruise level, again, talking about flight in single sector inside France (not UK to Greece)
Peter wrote:
Not before heard of a flight plan itself making IFR legal or not legal
It does in France, active FPL is required for NVFR/IFR cruise OCAS
SERA.4001(b)(3): “A flight plan shall be submitted prior to operating … any flight within or into areas, or along routes designated by the competent authority, to facilitate the provision of flight information”.
Some competent authorities use this provision to require flight plans for IFR OCAS – e.g. in Sweden you must have one above 5000’ and also within RMZs.
Better re-read the thread subject.
It’s gone right off again… when that happens, most people just lose the will to live and skip 50% of the posts. As a mod, what is one supposed to do??
Back on topic @ roznet was VFR because the CTOT delay was too long. Understandable.
He was not in the UK so.would have committed an infraction if he had climbed up through the layer to go vfr on top unless there was a hole to climb up through allowing him to remain vmc.
(whether one gets caught or not or whether itbis safer or not was not the question here as the OP was asking for future guidance).
A FPL should be deposed in France for all flights in IFR outside the circuit, all NVFR flights out of sight of the airfield, VFR flights across water out of gliding range and Frontier crossings. It is advisable for VFR flights crossing inhospitable areas. CAS or OCAS doesn’t come into it other than the fact that calling up and asking for clearance to transit CAS is considered an abbreviated flight plan or an airborne flight plan.
In the OPs.case if I had recneived a CTOT with such a long.delay I would have attempted to find out where the delay was caused with the BRIA, probably Bordeaux. Having done that I would ask them if there was a way of avoiding that block either by flying round it or amending the flight plan so I would pick up IFR after the blockage.I would then have asked the BRIA to file the flight plan but I would have to wait while they put the plan to Eurocontrol and receives the reply which takes a little longer than Autorouter manages it.
Alternatively, if I knew where the blockage was I could take off VFR and ask to file an airborne IFPL to pick it up at a waypoint after the blockage.
2nd alternative would be to file an IFPL to a waypoint before the blockage and a second IFPL to be picked up after the blockage. This second could also be an in flight flight plan. Of course he would have to be sure that the vfr connection between the 2 was possible.
Ibra wrote On Z- FPL departure in Golf with no ATS, I am dead sure you can become IFR/IMC at 50ft agl (activate on start-up or when MSA/MEA), however, gallois or others have different opinions on this…
I don’t recall saying that you cannot become IFR/IMC ar 50ft agl but you are unlikely to be at MSA/MEA at this height so I am not sure what situation you are referring.
The reason I like to gain 2 way communication as soon as possible is that I prefer not to risk running into @Ibra lurking unknown in the cloud. I am not a great fan of the big sky theory.🙂
The reason I like to gain 2 way communication as soon as possible is that I prefer not to risk running into @Ibra lurking unknown in the cloud
I usually talk on auto-info on COM1 while monitoring next ATS frequency on COM2, I also have ModeS/TAAS in aircraft and ADSB-in/out, you should not get very worried I am more fan of “empty sky theory” on such days…
In most case, ATS expect traffic to climb above some altitude before getting their pick up to cruise, AFAIK, they don’t offer radar services at 500ft agl
The situation here is slightly different: the pilot file VFR (not India, Yankee or Zulu) to move his CTOT away with risk of flying in IMC/CAS, usually it works as trick but he should not rely on ATC for clearance pickup in congested sectors if he gets it wrong, although, sometimes they tolerate early pickup or level changes…whatever, you do don’t be dumb: only a fool with IR will cruise in IFR equipped machine under OVC010 with good VMC on top, maybe worth getting ULM or helicopter
