From here
How to lose your license in 35 minutes using ForeFlight that keeps you totally blind: plan, file and fly an IFR flight from EDQG to EDVK in FL60 (lowest possible flight level). The results from FF are all Eurocontrol and DFS valid but guide all through three military restricted areas Hammelburg, Wildflecken and Schwarzenborn.
Nothing to do with Foreflight though.
Also, the route (like any IFR route in Germany) is in controlled airspace, and ATC will not clear you through these if active.
Are you sure about this? I had a talk with a guy from LBA who told me that when you start an IFR flight with a routing that guides you through these restricted airspaces you stand guilty. The lost-com-argument.
And yes, FF should have something to avoid that, don’t you think so?
Edit: wow the 1000st post in this thread 😅
That’s another reason: so many IR pilots use FF and it’s of no help here.
The results from FF are all Eurocontrol and DFS valid but guide all through three military restricted areas Hammelburg, Wildflecken and Schwarzenborn.
Usually the case, since most Eurocontrol member countries do not supply them with this data.
Reportedly this is deliberate, to preserve ATC jobs, which would be reduced if valid Eurocontrol routings could be “just flown”. Europe for you!
That I do not understand, @Peter.
I do get the argument that this is an “Arbeitsbeschaffungsmaßnahme”.
But what about legal consequences? When I file a direct between two waypoints (FF really loves directs) then I am responsible for airspaces. That sounds quite simple to be implemented in Foreflight or any App, by the way, because the airspace is in FF. It just should avoid any “R” and “D”. Isn’t this a real issue?
We nust have wires crossed because I am sure you know how this works. When you are IFR in the Eurocontrol system (which generally means in CAS) then ATC are responsible for everything.
The filed route means very little; it merely provides a rough template for the flight, for fuel planning (and you hope to improve by begging for every shortcut possible), and enables an IFR departure into “the system”.
I don’t know about Germany but in the UK you could not be prosecuted in such a case. The CAA would not even dream of it. Actually I doubt you could be prosecuted in Germany although based on stuff like this they may well have a go.
FF is an IFR app, primarily, and it assumes the developed route is okay. I am not aware of any current product which does “VFR autorouting”. The ancient Flitestar could do it (avoiding CAS and DAs etc) but the resulting route was horrid – IF it found one.
I had a talk with a guy from LBA who told me that when you start an IFR flight with a routing that guides you through these restricted airspaces you stand guilty. The lost-com-argument.
There was a brief period in 2021 when pilots in Germany got fines for that, but then they backed up. Not sure if it still happens nowadays.
I had a talk with a guy from LBA who told me that when you start an IFR flight with a routing that guides you through these restricted airspaces you stand guilty.
It’s just nonsense, he’s obviously clueless how this works.
@UdoR all R and not created equal. I suspect it’s much more difficult to implement what you suggested given that some R are active continuously and some not, and some you might be cleared through by ATC responsible.
However what is not at all true according to SERA is what Peter says. IFR does not at all mean ATC is responsible for “everything”. In fact flying under IFR very much still leaves the PIC responsible for everything. What might happen, but is not necessary, is that flying IFR you might get a “Cleared to destination via” clearance in which case ATC should coordinate clearances along the whole route or can reasonably expect that to not be necessary in order for clearancs to be obtained. But PIC is still ultimately responsible to enaure a clearance, one way or another, was obtained for every airspace. Those are the regulations. And @Peter I know you’ll jump on this like a rabid dog but please if you think this isn’t so, how about you cite some regs and not just talk opinions.
