I value the contributions here by @gallois
Having taught both English in France and French in England, I would generally say the level of foreign language proficiency was overall better in France. It’s difficult to make a direct comparison as the learning objectives are not the same: e.g. in France the emphasis was on grammar rather than pronunciation. The slightly scary thing is the children I was then teaching will now be 30, just the right age to be an AFIS 
This is probably out of date now, because at some point since then the accent of younger French people speaking English has shifted from French to American. Possibly due to more television in VO (version originale) as suggested.
It works the other way too: two ELP4 of different mother tongues may have more mutual intelligibility using ‘simple English’ than with a native speaker speaking quickly with regional accent and idiomatic vocabulary.
Lack of French proficiency, as far as I’m aware, was never a problem when I was a regular aéroclub member in sleepy provincial France. Every few months a CH, OO, PH or D would arrive speaking English or broken French, and the airfield would either be deserted or the other aircraft would keep a safe distance. Poor radio is probably better than no radio. ‘Sleepy’ is probably the key point too
Winston wrote:
giving it a goAs gallois says, this is the most important thing culturally.
I value the contributions here by gallois
So do I, which is why I spent an hour looking for that FB post.
I very much hope gallois’s comments were just an expression of frustration rather a genuine goodbye.
His contributions to the forum are always highly valued, and well thought out, and never argumentative.
While people debate the difficulties of language and the use of FR only airfields, let me by way of balance give you my experience.
First by way of background, I’m Irish (duh!) and while I learnt French at school, there is no way that I could have held any sort of (non artificial)conversation in French upon leaving school. The first time that I spoke a word of French to a French person was when I was about 25. It didn’t go well!
I can now do some basics, such as checking into a hotel, ordering some food etc but with very bad French and a lot of patience from the person I’m engaged with. It’s not good but works in an emergency.
So I have my crib sheet, and I do my best in French.
My experience with visiting FR only airfield is this. Generally most are very quiet with little or no traffic most of the time. Some have AFIS or ATC but revert to English when not available. So my strategy is to plan to arrive with ATC or AFIS is available in English. If that isn’t possible, then I call ahead and ask about English availability. Sometimes I’m told that an AFIS with English will be available but it just wasn’t NOTAMed and it’s no problem. Other times I’m told that they will make someone available at that time (not so common). But often they can give guidance on when is a good time to come so I can expect little traffic.
Off the top of my head, here are some experiences:
1. An Island – told generally quiet on weekdays. I arrived on a weekday and there was no other traffic on frequency. I announced myself and spotted one other non-radio aircraft. I slotted in behind and landed without issue. (Turned out to be a non-French aircraft and the pilot didn’t speak French and didn’t want to use English so just went non-radio).
2. Another Island. Was told best to arrive at lunch time when things are generally quiet. One other aircraft on Frequency. I didn’t quite understand what they were saying but gathered that they were close to a town on the mainland, well out of the area and not an issue (they were either after departing and making a final call leaving the area, or transiting the coast just announcing their position).
As I leave a few days later, it was much busier. But departing is much easier. Wait until things get a bit of a lull and then go, getting out of the area as quickly as possible!
3. Another nobody around at all in the 2 hours I was around the airport.
4. Another no other aircraft on frequency on arrival.
5. Tower NOTAMed as closed and I was prepared to use French (or delay for 30 mins until ATC was notamed to open if necessary). FIS told me that the tower was in fact opened and handed me over. On frequency changed it turned out FIS was incorrect and it was in fact closed. The circuit sounded busy with 3-4 aircraft. I was able to communicate enough in French to confirm that the tower was closed, got the runway in use, QNH and circuit direction. Quite proud of my French skills I was a bit surprised to arrive and find the circuit empty! Looks like everyone disappeared once they heard a foreigner with poor French was arriving 
6. ATC in English on arrival but for departure FR only. There were a few other aircraft on the ground. To be honest I didn’t understand most of what they were saying, but I announced what I was doing in French, and visually monitored the ground movements (no aircraft in the air at that time) and picked a quiet moment to head for the runway and depart.
7. Arrived on a Friday with nobody on frequency. Weather wasn’t great and it was an unplanned diversion. Announced in French and got on with it. Not a soul on the airfield all day. The next day (a lovely Saturday morning) and it was like Heathrow (but GA). Again I waited until three was a lull and left the area quickly.
So generally these places are usable with minimal French. If you make contact before hand you can often eliminate or significantly reduce the language issue. You should just have an alternative plan on somewhere else you can go if you arrive to find a full circuit with snappy French that you can’t follow. And going on weekdays helps A LOT to reduce the traffic.
I am a native English speaker who has taken the time to learn two other languages (Dutch and French) to relative proficiency, which I think makes me pretty unique in that I know very few others who have done the same. I also spent some time in a French university many years ago. I could never in good conscience conclude that anyone learning a foreign language was intentionally speaking it incorrectly, especially not students who are just learning it.
Anyone who speaks both French and English can understand that the distance between the two is quite large when it comes to pronunciation and the sounds one needs to make in general to produce intelligible speech. Most people cannot speak without a relatively heavy accent unless they spend considerable time immersed in an environment where it is spoken properly, and the reality is the majority of people don’t have this luxury. I live in Holland, where the level of English is generally very high, and where everyone tries pretty hard. But almost everyone still sounds like a Dutch person speaking English.
I very much hope gallois’s comments were just an expression of frustration rather a genuine goodbye.
His contributions to the forum are always highly valued, and well thought out, and never argumentative.
+1.
UK native English speaker here, almost bilingual in French also, with bits and pieces of others. People’s ability to speak without a strong native-biassed accent varies a huge amount. I have a French friend in the US who has lived there for 40 years and still has a French accent like he just got off the plane. Other French colleagues have a mild, recognizable but absolutely not in-the-way accent.
It’s almost impossible to speak “without an accent”. You can get to 95% if you have a talent for it (some phonetics training helps too) but getting to 99%+ is super hard. Most north Europeans (D/SE/N/NL/DK etc) speak lightly accented English, no stronger than a mild UK regional accent, but you can tell they’re not native. Some Scandinavians manage to sound Irish, to me anyway.
French phonetics are especially different from English, a problem in both directions. Most UK-natives sound truly awful when they speak French. But coming back to the point, all the ATCOs I’ve dealt with or heard in English sound perfectly fine to me. Sure they sound French – what did you expect?
Personally I really try to speak “accent free” but to my frustration people generally figure out I’m non-native. Though I was once pleased when someone commented that I have a southern French accent (in French) – my French fluency comes from being married to a Toulouse native for 30+ years.
johnh wrote:
Most north Europeans (D/SE/N/NL/DK etc) speak lightly accented English, no stronger than a mild UK regional accent, but you can tell they’re not native. Some Scandinavians manage to sound Irish, to me anyway.Agree. Scandinavians are even easier to understand, compared to some strong regional UK, Australian or American accents. Even though I’m Dutch myself and my English is for sure a kind of Dutch/German mixed accent, I had some issues understanding Dutch ATC for the first time. It was quite different from German ATC and Dutch ATC in general tend to speak quite quick, compared to other European countries. They even say runway numbers often as “nineteen” instead of “one niner”.
I live in Holland, where the level of English is generally very high, and where everyone tries pretty hard.I think you might not take the “Randstad” or other major cities as an example for the entire Netherlands. Especially in the countryside, there are still quite a lot of Dutch people, which are not so comfortable with English at all. Even more if you look at people with an age over 50. I think Scandinavians master English a lot better in general, even older people speak it, which is not so common in the Netherlands.
dutch_flyer wrote:
I live in Holland, where the level of English is generally very high, and where everyone tries pretty hard.
I think you might not take the “Randstad” or other major cities as an example for the entire Netherlands. Especially in the countryside, there are still quite a lot of Dutch people, which are not so comfortable with English at all
In the Randstad or other major cities there is a high proportion of ethnic minorities who, very much to my regret, struggle with Dutch let alone English.. But now I’m getting political.
I’ve not had any issues with French or Spanish ATC, but speaking the languages (French only a bit) helps in interpreting what they mean. Most Spanish controllers do absolutely fine when things are ‘standard’, but if out of the ordinary comms are needed some do struggle. But foreign pilots can do their bit too and not get into slang, because it just confuses. You cannot expect a novice controller to immediately understand ‘G-XXXX, coasting in at YYY’ which I heard the other day.
aart wrote:
You cannot expect a novice controller to immediately understand ‘G-XXXX, coasting in at YYY’ which I heard the other day.Is this “coasting in” not also a specialty of UK ATC?
G-XXXX, coasting in at YYY
That makes me cringe, and just illustrates the poor training at PPL level.
Completely non-standard. When I first heard it I had no idea what it meant (I rarely call up London Info, who are the principal user of it) and most ATC across mainland Europe would have no idea either.
