FAA IR to EASA IR - practical experience 'using the system' and finding an ATO/FI for training

Just trying to clarify – an IMC holder with the relevant experience can apply to test for a CB IR but with an ATO recommending the person as having done adequate training? But an FAA IR holder can just book the test, if he/she so chooses without having an ATO confirm the competency bit of the CB IR?

Correct, it appears, and a lot rides on the “relevant experience”, though the UK CAA has recently put out a gold plated flyer claiming the ATO is required for the latter chap as well – and withdrew the flyer after a day or so.

In any event both tests presumably have to be with a CAA examiner for first issue?

Yes – same test. In the UK, the examiner will likely be an “industry examiner”. I think the CAA staff examiners are now down to 3 or 4 only, and I believe one of them hasn’t done any IR tests for a very long time.

Just some paperwork to do, and I will possess a true EASA IR, without gold plating

Congratulations!

You still have the annual IR revalidation though… and the medical and the Class 1 audiogram… no escaping that lot

Thanks Peter.
But I didn’t have to fork out the money for 50hrs IR training at an FTO, and doing the theory exams bringing your private life to a grinding halt during one year :D … while already being experienced in European instrument flying.
You see: I am happy.

It would actually be 15hrs if you are converting an ICAO IR, but you are dead right about the exams.

That conversion route was never open in Belgium. The Belgian CAA had told me: redo everything.
Glad there is a route now. Times have changed !

My apologies if I bore you to tears with a long and sad story.

I got my IR ticket in the US in 2001 (piggyback FAA PPL based on a Norway CAA issued PPL) flew quite a bit of IFR on the west coast, then got back to Europe. During the next few years I barely maintained my IR, i.e. flew 6 approaches, a hold and tracked a course every 12 months. I was on the verge to give up my PPL because I was frustrated from being limited to VFR flight on F-registered airplanes and pretty much just flew 10 hours VFR per year. Then one day, the Norwegian CAA decided they would not renew my SEP unless I got an English language proficiency, and that was the best thing that had happened to me in a while.

Since I then lived in France (and still do), and had a JAR-FCL, I thought I could take the LP exam at the French CAA and have it added to my license by the Norwegian CAA. So I signed up for the LP test. It eventually turned out the the Norwegian CA refused to accept the FR CAA LP test, but that is a completely different story.

After the test, while waiting for the result, I chit-chatted with other candidates, one of whom gave me the name of a Paris-based FAA CFII. A few weeks later I found a N-reg DA40 G1000 for rent at LFPT. I contacted the CFII who proposed an IR refresher with a focus on the differences between IFR in the US and Europe, and instruction in RNAV GNSS. After some hours of TK, simulator flying and EFIS training, I did my BFR followed by an IFR flight to LFOP, an ILS, a GNSS approach at LFOP, flight back to LFPT terminated by the ILS 05.

After that I was legal and confident to fly IFR in France, and otherwise in Europe, although I must admit that the UK sounds like a completely different ball game.

A Eurocontrol IFR flight in the UK is no different to a Eurocontrol IFR flight in France, or anywhere else in Europe.

You collect the departure clearance, get going, do the enroute bit (minding the wx along the way, etc), and arrive in the usual way. If the wx is nice you ask for a visual approach so you remain IFR as far as possible.

The UK has a lot of Class G, which messes up the “end bit” i.e. obviously you cannot be “formally classically IFR” all the way to the tarmac like a 747 is when going JFK-LHR, but that’s no different to flying IFR in France to say Libourne LFDI which has no IAP, no CAS, so once the controller drops you off, you are in cowboy country just the same. The difference is that in France you are likely to spend less time in cowboy country, and you may have to manually close the flight plan with a phone call. The other difference is that UK has a lot of OCAS traffic but nearly all of them fly below 2000ft just as they were taught, so on a nice weekend you have to work like a gigolo: get in quick, get out quick, and disappear above 2000ft ASAP But that’s just VFR in a busy place – nothing to do with IFR. Eurocontrol IFR in the UK (London Control in the south) is really professional – as good as the best anywhere.

It is a fallacy that IFR is IFR when flying between OCAS airports. You are a VFR pilot then, and have to look after yourself. Some pilots get a warm feeling when talking to an IFR controller but if you are in Class G that means more or less exactly nothing because anybody else can be there non-radio. Also a lot of planes don’t have a transponder, or have their Mode C set to Mode A (out of ignorance, or so they can’t get done for busting TMAs) so traffic info is almost worthless. Even in French Class E you can have non-radio VFR traffic…

I wouldn’t worry about it.

Peter, let’s say you are flying from a Class D airport, climb let’s say to the MEA in class A, and eventually end up in class E or even G.

In France the controller will warn you about leaving controlled airspace and will continue to provide FIS. Reentering controlled airspace is not even mentioned – no additional clearance if issued. You are on an IFR flightplan, you are implicitly cleared to enter controlled your airspace provided you either follow your cleared or filed route and altitude.

How would that be handled in the UK?

In the UK you will eventually be dropped out of the class A into class G, be told to contact another unit (say London info), it will be a low grade FIS with no radar and your clearance limit will certainly not allow you back into CAS without a new clearance being issued.

The only place that can be better is northern Scotland where Scottish will sometimes kook after you into and out if CAS but this is controller dependant in my experience.

Peter, let’s say you are flying from a Class D airport, climb let’s say to the MEA in class A, and eventually end up in class E or even G.

In France the controller will warn you about leaving controlled airspace and will continue to provide FIS. Reentering controlled airspace is not even mentioned – no additional clearance if issued. You are on an IFR flightplan, you are implicitly cleared to enter controlled your airspace provided you either follow your cleared or filed route and altitude.

How would that be handled in the UK?

There is almost no Class E in the UK, so it would be G.

Firstly France is largely non ICAO compliant in the way they deal with CAS clearances. They don’t normally use the “cleared to…” phraseology. This informality is of course fine (America does the same, if there is a “two way contact”, for Class D) but there is some CAS in France where you can’t do that. I am told that for example in the Lyon area you do need to get an explicit clearance. In the UK, and most of the world, they do it correctly i.e. you have to request a clearance to enter CAS.

Secondly, in the UK, once you drop off a Eurocontrol IFR flight into G, the “Eurocontrol IFR” controller (London Control in the south) will nowadays give you a Basic Service (ICAO FIS) for a bit (unless your landing is obviously imminent). They used to just dump you onto FIS (London Info) but this seems to have gradually changed. For example when going LDLO-EGKA recently, we dropped out of CAS at 5500ft but got handed from LC to Gatwick Director and had service until I asked for a change to Shoreham at about 4000ft. That said, it was IMC, borderline freezing rain, and icing conditions further back

But once you are dropped off whatever IFR controller to somebody outside that system, you are now a “VFR flight” with your IFR clearance terminated.

I knew that while I was talking to Gatwick Director I could just fly on regardless of CAS, but a very fair question to ask is “how did I know that?”. It’s just a part of knowing how IFR works… Basically if you are talking to a radar unit, your IFR clearance continues i.e. CAS remains irrelevant and that is true even for Farnborough Radar which is normally regarded as just a GA/OCAS service. I don’t see how say France could work this differently – if they hand you over to a non-radar controller then I can’t see how any implicit IFR clearance can remain, because they can’t see you anymore. The whole business of IFR where you have an implicit IFR clearance (in Europe – not say Africa) is totally predicated on radar control.

Nowadays the potential for getting confused in the UK is fairly small, because the IFR controllers are pretty careful to tell you what is going on. The possible issue remains still on handovers from French units to the UK, where a flight below about FL100 is liable to get handed to London Info (“contact London 124.6”) instead of London Control. This used to happen below FL120 but has come down since. You just have to have awareness of this when flying GA IFR.

But you need “VFR awareness” when flying GA IFR, anyway, because you will end up at unmanned French towers (post-departure you absolutely cannot enter CAS until somebody clears you) etc etc.