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The impossible turn

Excellent video – thanks Robert for posting it. They managed 200ft, with the qualifications you mention. I suppose in say a TB20 the minimum would be at least 700ft.

The video doesn’t address this but it is interesting whether – with a crosswind – turning upwind (and gaining some energy by turning into a favourable wind shear) is better or worse than my post #30 proposition which is turning downwind (and not getting the favourable wind shear, but reducing the required track miles to reach the runway because you get blown into a better position).

Most people I have known who thought about this seriously would turn upwind… including one very good SE turboprop pilot who had that in his pre takeoff brief.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

RobertL18C wrote:

A controlled crash at 30-40 mph is a much safer outcome, emphasis on controlled.

With a turn (left or right) there are many variables to account for and as time evolve it gets really binary relative to pilot skill/currency or aircraft capabilities, with wing level straight ahead there are only two parameters: your aircraft protection (5 points straps preferably) + controlled ground speed (your skill)

Same for PFL practices, my failed attempts were because of too much turn/misjudging wind/wrong last minutes decision to “save the aircraft”, now I practice maintaining shallow turns and to go for slow ground speed on a crash safe field where the aircraft frame can “save me”

I never regretted overshooting the runway in fiberglass at 40 mph in the bushes instead of turning back, so I think in a cub I can survive head-on at 70 mph

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

I know someone who did a PPL revalidation at EGKA and the FI pulled the mixture after takeoff There are a few “characters” out there…

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

The video doesn’t address this but it is interesting whether – with a crosswind – turning upwind (and gaining some energy by turning into a favourable wind shear) is better or worse than my post #30 proposition which is turning downwind (and not getting the favourable wind shear, but reducing the required track miles to reach the runway because you get blown into a better position).

Most people I have known who thought about this seriously would turn upwind… including one very good SE turboprop pilot who had that in his pre takeoff brief.

The effect of the crosswind is on the eventual position on rollout. Not sure there are any shear effects. If departing a field with a single runway, I would always turn into the wind as it keeps you closer to the runway centre line on rollout. Turning downwind means you are further from the runway and needs a more extreme turn to line up with the centreline. The more interesting question is if there is a crossing runway, then a turn downwind could position you for a circle to that.

EGTK Oxford

If you want to land into wind there are two choices: land ahead if low or turn downwind if high,

Having one long runway solves the first and having a cross runway solves the second, but you have to decide on the hight for yes/no turn while on the ground,

In gliding, lot of students do cable breaks (=EFATO), nothing wost than figuring out yes/no turn while in the air or forgotting to lower the nose down before making that call

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

I remember when getting checked on cable breaks at Lasham gliding site that had huge runway on a very windy day, the instructor was surprise of my land ahead decision when he released the cable at 200ft, 500ft, 700ft by the time he released the cable at 900ft I went for a normal circuit

The normal ops suggest somewhere around 500ft for yes/no turn but I think that height point can go from 300ft to 1000ft easily when conditions changed

Note that sometimes, that height point does not even exist (medium height, short runway and no wind = you are cursed) or does not matter (high altitude, long runway, windy day = you can do both)

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

now someone who did a PPL revalidation at EGKA and the FI pulled the mixture after takeoff There are a few “characters” out there

All at once: into dead stick or more vicious: slowly pulling it off without the guy noticing ?

Last Edited by Ibra at 24 Apr 11:20
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

All at once.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Vladimir wrote:

Does anyone train such maneuvers (SEP engine failure after takeoff at low altitude) with an instructor?
I did it in a PA28-140 when in South Africa, engine to idling at 300ft, I made it to a 60degrees intercept to the runway but would have run out of altitude. As in the video, the surprising part is how steep a turn you need to do, managing your speed and flaps, and beware of stall.
The instructor made a much better job and made it to the edge of the runway. But again it’s one thing to know the engine idling is coming and having a real engine failure and the drag of a stopped prop.

ESMK, Sweden

I have done this quite a bit in a champ floatplane (maybe 50 times). I didn’t do an exhaustive study of the best procedure, or try to get the absolute minimum. I was quite cautious to keep the speed margin above accelerated stall.

It was very easy to turn 45 degrees away from your target (say to the right) and then 225 degrees to the left. Making turns with a 45 degree bank angle it was straight forward to arrive with plenty of energy for a nice flair from 600 feet (this was very conservative). With a floatplane you have a lot of drag, so the nose down attitude to maintain speed can be a bit alarming at first.

Probably worth practising at altitude to get a feel for it. I basically didn’t do much low level manoeuvring in a normal plane (PA28) so I would definitely feel out of practice and that there would be work to make sure that you proficient before attempting anything.

However, for the Champ, it felt like you were getting a nosebleed above 500 feet. You are always manoeuvring at low level so, at least in my case, proficiency was much better.

Horses for courses.

Sans aircraft at the moment :-(, United Kingdom
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