This is taken from the TCDS of the Cessna 182
That’s over 420kg. I find that to be very reassuring and a good guidance. I’m not aware of any other GA aircraft where the TCDS provides guidance on overweight operation.
In any piston 4-seater you’re above MTOM with 4 adults, any luggage and full tanks.
The C182 is an exception to that and the Cirrus G5 as well.
Other than those already mentioned, others that come to mind are the last, biggest engined Comanches (260C and 400) and the Stinson 108-3, which is a fairly common aircraft in the US. Radial engined antiques too.
Re airliners and MTOW – I worked seven years as dispatch doing W&B among other things. I can’t count the number of times stuff had to be left behind on fully booked 757s / 321s ski charters doing Geneva – London, due to reaching Max Zero Fuel Weight. And bear in mind these don’t carry any freight either. CG range is model dependent – DC9s were notoriously difficult to balance when full as the aft hold is very small and the CG quite difficult to bring backwards using load. If one tries (not even very hard) it’s quite easy to put even a forgiving workhorse like the 737 out of trim with partial load – about 40 pax all sat at the back is all it took.
Do they fly over MTOW – I saw one Do328 taking off 1 ton overload (with a MTOW of about 13ish) and it flew fine. I also saw a DC9 which was per paperwork 0kg underweight use two thirds of the runway on a hot summer day and climb like an asthmatic DC3… so results may vary ^^.
Do they fly over MTOW all the time – depends where. I think the official pax weight scale in Europe (84kg for males, 69 females) is closer to reality than in the US :)
Off topic over.
Patrick wrote:
So I usually work with estimates – about luggage weights, about female passenger weights (guys I will ask) and about the weight of all the “stuff” that can usually be found in the baggage compartment of a chartered aircraft. But I then am quite careful with these estimates to not go above the MTOW.
I do it generally in the same way. I will never knowingly take off overweight, but I’m not paranoid about checking every pax or piece of luggage down to the last kg either.
I keep scales at my hangar. My wife and I combined weigh about 20% under standard weight for two people so we don’t often have to weigh anybody or anything to be assured of staying under gross. CG with bags can sometimes be more of an issue as one plane is at the unloaded aft limit.
I have one of these portable scales in my flight bag and I use it all the time.
To me this is not a question of what the plane can do, but about safety margins and performance.
Can my plane take off overweight in less than 750m? I’m sure it can. But I know that when I’m at MTOW I’ll have reached 60kts by the midway point, and if I don’t, I abort; if I’m over MTOW how do I know where to abort, and do I have sufficient runway to do so if need be?
Also my plane’s far from being a great climber even at MTOW, I really don’t want to go all the way up to FL200 at 400fpm…
Being overweight is not a huge problem as long as:
the runway is long
the COG is not (much) behind the envelope
it’s not too much
I agree, but would like to add “you’re in a single”
In a piston twin, those last few kg of load running up to MTOW are the critical ones in terms of SE performance. A small amount of loading beyond MTOW will reduce SE climb to zero. I am, therefore, meticulous and honest about weight for every flight.
I would also like to add that anyone routinely flying above MTOW is displaying a worryingly casual attitude to flying. There are times where one can get away with it, but there will come a warm summers day where you won’t.
I think you have to exclude all those 1999kg Senecas and PA46 from your blanket statement, Josh.
Also flying over MTOM doesn’t mean one isn’t aware of the exact performance characteristics of the plane. Flying sub MTOM in a C172 can get you in trouble on a warm summer day, too.
All those zillions of C150/152 doing PPL training every day (even in summer) are massively over MTOM. What would be more “routinely” than those? Heck, when [someone I know well] did his PPL exam, they were at least 80kg over MTOM.
And in the microlight scene, there is hardly ever a departure that isn’t over MTOM.
Aircraft that are artificially limited for financial reasons were not what I meant at all – in that case you work to the real MTOW and fear a French ramp check!
Where I learned to fly, an instructor and student died on an EFATO in a well overweight Tomahawk. Yes, you get away with it, but in aircraft where the engine isn’t producing the power it once did, a warm day, unexpected rotor, rough handling, it’s a recipe for disaster. I can think of three fatal accidents in the UK alone where this was a significant factor.
