Interesting thread, which started me thinking about relative complexity of IFR and VFR routing.
Here’s my Maule’s well-trodden VFR route from my back yard (Scotland) to Annemasse:
ZZZZ-EGNJ Brigg-DVR-CTL-LSGG Echo-LFLI
There are a couple of bits of airspace in the vicinity of which it pays to keep head out of bum, but mostly I can look in people’s gardens, enjoy the legendary Air Jacko in-flight catering, or watch a movie. 
Here is what Autorouter just offered me IFR:
ZZZZ N0095F060 GIRLI/N0095F060 IFR P18 NATEB/N0095F040 DCT DIGBI/N0095F080 DCT ROVNI/N0095F050 DCT ELNAB/N0095F060 DCT SOMVA/N0095F050 DCT GORLO/N0095F040 DCT DENUT/N0095F070 DCT CIV Y50 MATIX/N0095F080 Y50 VAKOS/N0095F090 Y50 REM B3 VATRI G40 ARSIL B13 SOMDA A6 DJL/N0095F070 A1 LISMO/N0095F080 A1 SPR VFR LFLI
Validation:
PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513A:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513AR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAM PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513A:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513AR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAMPROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513B:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513BR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAM PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513A:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513AR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAM PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513A:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513AR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAMPROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513B:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513BR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAMPROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513:F000..F105 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513R] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAM PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513A:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513AR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAM PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513A:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513AR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAMPROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513B:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513BR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAM PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513A:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513AR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAM PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513A:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513AR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAMPROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513B:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513BR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAMPROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513:F000..F105 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513R] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAMPROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD323A:F050..F999 [201510070745..201510072030] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD323AR] EGD323A/B/C/D/E/F DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UU PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513A:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513AR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAM PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513A:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513AR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAMPROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513B:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513BR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAM PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513A:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513AR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAM PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513A:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513AR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAMPROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513B:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513BR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAMPROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513:F000..F105 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513R] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAM PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513A:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513AR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAM PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513A:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513AR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAMPROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513B:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513BR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAM PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513A:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513AR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAM PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513A:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513AR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAMPROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513B:F000..F235 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513BR] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAMPROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD513:F000..F105 [201510071600..201510071745] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD513R] EGD513 DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUP/NOTAMPROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD323A:F050..F999 [201510070745..201510072030] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD323AR] EGD323A/B/C/D/E/F DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UUPROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGD323B:F050..F999 [201510070745..201510072315] IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGD323BR] EGD323A/B/C/D/E/F DANGER AREA SEE AUP/UU
Warning: DEST IMMIGRATION not available
Flight crosses Schengen borders
It doesn’t look like you let the router finish there, Jacko. This is what I get for EGNJ-LFLI
Obviously there are differences e.g. I possibly have a wider altitude range.
I selected a VFR-to-IFR route, out of the ones generated. The IFR-to-IFR route goes way out of the way initially to the west, to stay in CAS. The key problem is that the east coast of the UK is Class G (no CAS) so the best way to hack that is to file Z and fly that bit VFR, which of course you can do in IMC
You can force less-water routes by selecting fly-through waypoints, etc.
Jacko wrote:
enjoy the legendary Air Jacko in-flight catering, or watch a movie.
So VFR to save the hassle of IFR routings but watching movies instead of scanning the skies?
Thanks, I’ll take any route in the future without complaining :-)
Thanks Peter, I do need to practice a bit with Autorouter.
As for in flight entertainment, I should have added a . Like all well-behaved VFR pilots, I do listen and keep a sharp lookout for aircraft which are not on a collision course. I’m not entirely convinced that there’s much point in trying to spot the others.
Today we had a jet at 500 ft over my airfield at about Mach 0.9. Felt the pulse. Unfortunately we’re a hypothetical target in a LFA, so it’s kind of like roulette but with pretty good odds. The options are get used to it or give up.
I’m not entirely convinced that there’s much point in trying to spot the others.
Why do you think so? I think that (in VFR AND IFR flight!) not scanning the airspace is one of the biggest mistakes many pilots make. And a midair is really such a scary thing that i try to not forget it (although I have a TAS system).
Two days ago, descending with 200 knots through a 3000 feet thick layer I got a traffic warning about an unidentified VFR target … “12 o’clock, same altitude, moving east to west” ( i was heading south). That guy MUST have been in the clouds, and I (for one) really hate that.
But, at least he was socially responsible and was radiating Mode C.
So just give him a few hundred feet vertically and be glad you “saw” him.
FWIW, and I know this is self evidently hard to prove, but I see very little evidence that Mode A or non-TXP pilots fly in IMC… at least here in the UK. For sure I don’t recall ever seeing a Mode A or non-TXP aircraft above a cloud layer. Maybe they do in Germany where they “have to” pretend they are VMC.
What is the Va of an SR22 BTW?
I’m too lazy to get check, but I think it’s 142 KIAS. It was very calm inside that cloud layer, no problem flying fast, and it was 200 KTAS at 6000 feet or so, not KIAS
I am NOT so sure that they all use transponders. I have some evidence that UL (german ultralight category) fly in IMC illegally, and I can only hope that only the ones with txp do.
I have some evidence that UL (german ultralight category) fly in IMC illegally, and I can only hope that only the ones with txp do.
From reading www.ulforum.de, I have a feeling (but no more than that!) that the vast majority of D-Mxxx pilots do carry a transponder, very often even a mode-S. Also, the vast majority seem to believe in rigourously respecting the rules that be, sometimes even beyond reason (like some asking for data files to display the aerodrome circuit in their GPS, the so-called “Platzrundenmodul”).
Then again, every bit of airspace has its fool hanging around. Might as well be a glider as a microlighter, though. Gliders seem to like flying in (certain types of) cloud because of good thermals. They too often have an active transponder; but a good deal of them seem to think they’ve done all they should when a Flarm box is installed.
I’m just not convinced it’s possible to spot another aircraft on a true collision course without some kind of electronic gadget to narrow the scan area. Our eyes did not evolve for that task. An airprox, that’s less of a problem, but a fast jet or light aircraft truly stationary anywhere on a full 360 × 90 degree scan area – that’s not what our eyes and brains evolved to do. I think some birds can do it, up to a point, and within the confines of their Vne, but they do also kill themselves flying into window glass.
Fortunately, it’s also not easy to cause two small objects to collide in space – as anyone who has tried shooting clay pigeons with a rifle can attest.
P.S. Sorry for thread drift, and I do understand that many pilots feel safer believing that they can actually see and avoid.
