what_next wrote:
Who or what is “IAOPA”? I fly commercially around Europe and we carry all sorts of stuff on board the aircraft which would normally be classified as dangerous goods, but is expempt from the requlation because it is required for the operation of the aircraft. Cans with engine oil, Prist (a really nasty stuff) and deicing fluid to name a few. No ramp inspector has ever complained about that, pre- and post EASA regulations.
I was just making the point that, certainly in the opinion of IAOPA (which is a federation of various international individual AOPAs), the regulations in Europe do not allow for any exemptions…if taken at face value, even the contents of a relief bottle can be construed to be a dangerous good under the ICAO definitions. If there are exemptions for private operations (or even commercial as you indicate) then IAOPA is (was) not aware of them and me either. Please point me to them.
Of course such an extreme stance is ridiculous…but not all legislation passes the “sense test”…
FWIW, of course I carry spare oil quarts and if necessary I would carry a sealed plastic proper fuel container… (filled to 90%)
From a practical POV there is no issue with expansion on Avgas in plastic cans. Metal cans are a non issue once you don’t overfill them. A grounded Mr Funnel type funnel is always useful, as is a foam matt to prevent damaging the wing surface putting the cans up and down. Mogas expands much more, and in plastic cans its useful to have a vent to blow off before opening in summer temps. There is no ethanol free mogas commonly available in Ireland so its a non issue for me anymore – I just don’t use it.
If you started to think about the crash worthiness implications you might never fly. I suspect an old ally pipe might give way much quicker than a plastic can in an impact anyway. Don’t think too much about it! Do it if you need to, its quite common practice in remote areas and especially common in seaplane ops.
I have nothing to say about the legal aspects – they have been well addressed in several replies – but I do find them exaggerated. As someone wrote not all legislation passes the “sense test”
Carrying almost all my flying fuel in two steel jerrycans from the village petrol station to the airfield, I never saw any issue. I do have learned to not overfill them, though, having got splashes over me on opening them.
PS the proper spelling is indeed “jerrycan” in one single word – did you know the “Jerry” part refers to German (military), where these were first used? USA and UK copied them in the early 1940’s. Reference
AnthonyQ wrote:
I was just making the point that, certainly in the opinion of IAOPA (which is a federation of various international individual AOPAs), the regulations in Europe do not allow for any exemptions…
IIRC Annex 18 contains the exception what_next is talking about. Since that is not a law in itself, one would have to dig deeper. I believe the exception as it is in Annex 18 doesn’t make a distinction between commercial and private.
Jan_Olieslagers wrote:
did you know the “Jerry” part refers to German (military), where these were first used? USA and UK copied them in the early 1940’s.
Indeed. The German design was far more practical which played (perhaps to some surprisingly so) major role in the war effort (logistics being very important albeit not very exciting part of it).
There is a man (who may be present here, he is certainly on PPRuNe and I think Flyer) who stored some empty but still fume-filled jerry cans in the rear of his aircraft.
The ensuing explosion and fire only just stopped short of killing him, but the burns, as I understand things, were life changing, and other consequences were also devastating to his life.
As keeping full jerry cans in the back implies that they will also, from time to time, be nearly empty, and as things in light aircraft have a habit of creating sparks, I would suggest that it’s a bad, bad decision to carry them.
Interesting thought Timothy.
I wonder how those who use mogas, and need to arrange lifts to local petrol stations why flying elsewhere, manage? Do they try to borrow jerry cans locally? Empty cans wasn’t something that I’d given any thought to, figuring full ones would be the problem!
There is a man (who may be present here, he is certainly on PPRuNe and I think Flyer) who stored some empty but still fume-filled jerry cans in the rear of his aircraft.
He may read EuroGA (as most of UK GA does, as well as the CAA) but he doesn’t post here AFAIK.
How exactly was the vapour ignited? You do need ignition (could happen electrostatically) and the vapour pressure has to be within a certain narrow range (of the order of 14% fuel to air, IIRC). That’s why if you drop a lit match into an aircraft tank full of avgas, via the filler hole, it is unlikely to ignite because the vapour is far too dense. I don’t see how any closed fuel container could ignite, because even if it is leaking, the vapour pressure will be way too low outside it. And the smell threshold for avgas is orders of magnitude lower than the required mixture for ignition.
There were all kinds of stories circulating after that incident, including that the insurance didn’t pay out because they didn’t believe it.
It incidentally also led to the meltdown of the GA section of one forum, via some fraudulent activity connected with supposedly raising money for his family…
I wonder how those who use mogas, and need to arrange lifts to local petrol stations why flying elsewhere, manage?
I don’t get it too because unless your name is Geoff Capes you won’t be able to carry the required containers for anything but a very small flying machine.
There are indeed varying opinion as to how the conflagration started, but that doesn’t change the fact that a cabin full of avgas vapour could be ignited in a variety of quite plausible ways.
Carrying jerrycans can probably not be legal or safe to do, but it can be practical in some cases and better than not having enough fuel on board to make it to the next airfield in remote areas of the world. Some would stay home, others take the extra risk and bring along fuel on board.
I know of one guy, dr. Harry Anderson who wrote the book ‘Flying 7 Continents Solo’ who when flying to the south pole brought fuel on-board in metal jerrycans/containers strapped in an empty seat as it was the only way to get there and back again as there was no AVGAS around there on the south pole.
I for myself have taken along special fuel jerrycans on trips through Africa knowing that I otherwise would end up stuck somewhere on one or two legs without enough fuel. There are lots of considerations from the legal, safety or insurance point of view. Also, the ferrytank on a ferry-permit is not always a suitable solution. And we had a ferry tank that we sized to the best of our knowledge of that time to be optimal for our trip, except for 1-2 legs. So we went and dealt with it. Others would probably not go.
I have heard of a Cirrus pilot flying in the Middle East that regularly took along jerrycans with AVGAS on board in order to be able to fly to a destination and back. Now he migrated to a TBM850 and doesn’t have that problem anymore as Jet-A1 is more readily available. The fuel issue was one of the reasons for migrating and seemingly money was not a problem for him in this migration process.
Buying fuel in Aden, Yemen. We left the jerrycans there in Yemen.
Filling up special fuel jerrycans with AVGAS as our next destination did not have any.
Our fuel guy. Seemingly his diving glasses would protect him against this dangerous stuff …
but that doesn’t change the fact that a cabin full of avgas vapour could be ignited in a variety of quite plausible ways.
I did a quick google on the smell (odor/odour) threshold of “gasoline” and figures that pop up suggest 2-6ppm.
The ignition threshold is of the order of 10% i.e. 100000ppm!
So you would need the mother of all leaks in the cabin to produce a mixture in the cabin generally which might ignite.
That may take a bit of work to achieve, given that there is airflow through the cabin normally, plus any gases in the cabin (which are not outside) will act IAW the law of partial pressures i.e. will try to escape preferentially.
One has to be very careful with safety – a “live and live” approach will get you eventually but the point I am making is that you need a substantial spill and an ignition source (which could be static i.e. from clothes!) to make it go off. That is why aircraft are grounded when refuelling.
