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UK GAR form discussion, and UK border police procedures

It means poppycock

EHTE, Netherlands

boscomantico wrote:

Yeah, such as very frequent, longish ramp checks

Never been ramp checked in Germany or France? Even in Germany you are obliged to provide proof of identity if requested as I understand it (one of the complaints in your link) and I believe it is the same in Belgium. My experience with checks in Germany was just like here, thorough, efficient and friendly.

EHLE / Lelystad, Netherlands, Netherlands

One definition is “nonsense, or words that are intended to deceive”.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Oh, well then I’m lucky, since that happens to be just what I wanted to express!

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

@AeroPlus
the information in the http://www.aeroplus.nl/fly/txoug may be not complete. I just returned from EHHV, Hilversum. My flight there was from LKCB (Cheb, Czech Republic) to EHHV (Hilversum, the Netherlands), VFR, private flight with a flight plan. After landing at Hilversum two police officers came to our plane and asked for Gendec. As I did not have any (it was the intra-Schengen flight) they gave me the form and I filled it straight there. The police officers acted very friendly and made the procedure easy.

However, in the referred article is written " flights to and from non-Schengen countries ".

When I take the look at the AIP at http://www.ais-netherlands.nl, it actually says “to and from the Netherlands”. My experience as well as the answer of the police officers to my direct question about Schengen seems, unfortunately, to confirm the AIP version.

It should be only for non-Schengen, but I will ask and see if I can get this cleared out.

EDLE, Netherlands

In AIP 3.2 it mentions this: According to the Schengen Borders Code third countries are countries outside the Schengen area.
But … I will ask the responsible guy.

EDLE, Netherlands

I did get a response and indeed intra-Schengen flights are most likely also going to have to bring along a GenDec. They are going to check each incoming and outgoing flight!

In Dutch the response is as follows:
De Gendec moet ten allen tijde getoond kunnen worden aan een controlerende instantie. In het geval van intra Schengen hoeft deze (nog niet) ingevuld (straks digitaal) aangeleverd te worden maar moet wel op verzoek bij controle getoond kunnen worden. Ik geef aan, nog niet, want er zijn al geluiden dat ook intra Schengen vluchten aan de volledige Gendec verplichting moet gaan voldoen. Ik hoop je hiermee voldoende te hebben geïnformeerd.

In English (free translation):
You have to be able to show a GenDec at all times when checked. In the case of intra-Schengen flights, you don’t have to (yet) fill in and deliver them ahead of flight (later digitally), but you have to show the GenDec when asked for. That is, for now, as there are rumours that intra-Schengen flights will soon be required to also comply to the full GenDec requirements.

Now sure how they can do this and on what basis, but will ask. Any of you have any idea how the Dutch can circumvent the Schengen agreement?

Last Edited by AeroPlus at 16 Sep 08:47
EDLE, Netherlands

Well, it seems complicated. If there are people good in law and that speak or read Dutch, I am more than willing to share the responses I got from the Dutch authorities.

In simple words here is my take on it. The Schengen Agreement did away with internal borders within the Schengen zone and the protection is now on the outside borders. National laws might still here and there relate to border protection (in its general sense), but should now be read to relate to Schengen borders.

See here how a Dutch law was changed to be more in line with the Schengen agreement and which also was published with notes to clarify: https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/stb-2008-118.html
Article 4.15 lid 1 is the Dutch article that the Dutch border force now use as the legal reason behind demanding GenDecs also from pilots arriving into The Netherlands on intra-Schengen flights. So, a flight from Germany to The Netherlands would be such a flight and the border force could demand that GenDec document from the pilot of the private aircraft.

I personally don’t think this is a correct interpretation of the law in light of the Schengen agreement (coming above national laws anyways), but I am no expert.

EDLE, Netherlands

AeroPlus wrote:

See here how a Dutch law was changed to be more in line with the Schengen agreement and which also was published with notes to clarify: https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/stb-2008-118.html
Article 4.15 lid 1 is the Dutch article that the Dutch border force now use as the legal reason behind demanding GenDecs also from pilots arriving into The Netherlands on intra-Schengen flights. So, a flight from Germany to The Netherlands would be such a flight and the border force could demand that GenDec document from the pilot of the private aircraft.

I personally don’t think this is a correct interpretation of the law in light of the Schengen agreement (coming above national laws anyways), but I am no expert.

This is strange. The Dutch law refers to Annex VI, section 2.3.1, of the Schengen Borders Code which is explicitly about arrivals/departures from/to third countries.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden
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