Peter wrote:
So… how do you define a “club”?
I used the word because BeechBaby used it. As Neil pointed out, the word is not used in the ops regulation, so there is no need to define it in this case.
Ibra wrote:
I think you also need a “cfi” and list of “authorized pilots” that are regularly checked (at least in gliding) to conduct introductory flights,
You don’t need a “cfi”, but you need to have someone appointed to oversee the flights. You don’t need “authorised pilots” as such, and certainly you don’t need to regularly check the pilots. OTOH, since the organisation is operating the flights, clearly only pilots appointed by the organisation can fly them. I practise I guess there will be a list.
also it should not be your main activity…
The expression “marginal activity” is open to interpretation. In Sweden, the Transport Agency has decided that introductory flight can make up at most 8% of the flight time of the organisation.
CAA Introductory Flights doc local copy
Key for me is:
1.4.3 Shall be overseen by a person nominated by the relevant organisation (as per EASA
Air Ops Regulation 6.4(c)) to be responsible for the safety of those involved
I think anyone who doesn’t run some kind of approval and checking regime for their organisation / pilots would be very ill advised. Personally I won’t go anywhere near it at the clubs I oversee.
Balliol wrote:
Personally I won’t go anywhere near it at the clubs I oversee
In my view is that this is the problem. Many views, many differing opinions, many interpretations, mixed with those that either don’t care, don’t know therefore ignorance is bliss, or who would flout any rule regardless.
FWIW there are many PPL’s that I would think twice about flying with, and as many instructors. And yet plenty are flying paying customers?
The CAA asked me to make this abundantly clear to customers………
‘Please take note that our Introductory Flights are not required to conform to the same safety regulations as other organisations conducting Commercial Air Transport (CAT) and Public Transport (PT) operations. Please also take note that we endeavour to reach further than these organisations in our approach to flight safety by using qualified instructors for all flights and enhanced maintenance regimes’.
Which I duly did but cannot see this on many other websites.
Balliol wrote:
I think anyone who doesn’t run some kind of approval and checking regime for their organisation / pilots would be very ill advised.
Obviously. But there is no regulatory requirement for it.
@MedEwok: I don‘t want to nitpick, but a club in Germany can also be a non-registered entity (compared to https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verein) and even if it is registered, it doesn‘t have to be non-profit or tax-exempt (an e.V. is. not necessarily gemeinnützig). Finally you need 7 people to form a club, but 3 are enough to keep the club alive.
However for flying the registered tax-exempt club makes the most sense, as it guarantees pilots to only pay the reduced VAT!
Once again the UK is a bit different!
Most ‘flying clubs’ in the UK are not clubs at all, but businesses. They exist primarily to provide an income for an owner(s), and that owner(s) has/have executive control of it.
I don’t believe the term ‘club’ is protected at all in the UK. Anyone can call any business a ‘club’ and create the subtle (or not so subtle) impression that it’s simply a collection of like-minded individuals when in fact it’s a collection of customers.
The easy distinction where both types exist in the UK is golf clubs. One the one hand you have a proper private members’ club, where the members collectively own the course and all the other assets and a committee of members exercises executive control and appoint paid staff to run things on a day-to-day basis. On the other hand you have golf ‘clubs’ that are simply businesses, yet it still calls itself a club and has all the trappings of a club (annual dinner, etc.) and still takes a subscription/membership fee. The difference is simply who has control and where your money goes. The latter will always be poorer value for money as a member (sorry, customer) since there is the extra cost of providing the owner with an income.
Not many flying clubs in the UK are genuine member-owned clubs. I believe Leicester is.
