Yes, I agree 
Which radios can do that?
The Trig TY91 for a beginning.
Steve6443 wrote:
I’m hardly likely to switch to the listening frequency / squawk mentioned on the map because the controllers at Langen Radar can see that I’m already talking to Langen Information…..
But you really should. This new regulation is not about the controllers in Langen (which in real life are only three or four individual controllers for the whole country as far as those AIS Information frequencies are concerned) but about the local controllers who co-ordinate IFR approaches and departures to and from their airport. Many of the airports in that list above have scheduled passenger services with large airliners in increasing numbers. This RMZ/TMZ thing is a favor towards the GA community. As I wrote, it only takes to or three dangerous near-misses (two TCAS reports filed by Lufthansa or one of it’s affiliates will do the job) and all those zones will become class C airspace. With flight plans and clearances required for entering.
what_next wrote:
Steve6443 wrote:
I’m hardly likely to switch to the listening frequency / squawk mentioned on the map because the controllers at Langen Radar can see that I’m already talking to Langen Information…..
But you really should. This new regulation is not about the controllers in Langen (which in real life are only three or four individual controllers for the whole country as far as those AIS Information frequencies are concerned) but about the local controllers who co-ordinate IFR approaches and departures to and from their airport. Many of the airports in that list above have scheduled passenger services with large airliners in increasing numbers. This RMZ/TMZ thing is a favor towards the GA community. As I wrote, it only takes to or three dangerous near-misses (two TCAS reports filed by Lufthansa or one of it’s affiliates will do the job) and all those zones will become class C airspace. With flight plans and clearances required for ent
I’m going to respectfully disagree with you about needing to listen to them if I’m already talking to Langen Information because the whole idea is to allow the controller to easily contact any VFR traffic – see here:
In Germany, transponder mandatory zones (TMZ) surround individual airports to increase the protection of IFR arrivals/departures from unknown VFR flights in these areas (airspace class E). Although the air navigation services receive information (aircraft identification, position and altitude) about VFR aircraft flying in the TMZ, it is generally not possible to establish contact with an individual VFR aircraft, e.g. in the case of a potential conflict with an IFR aircraft. In light of this, the concept of “TMZ with air-ground voice communication watch” has been developed to increase air safety.__.
Note the bold. They are aiming to make it easier for the controllers to contact VFR traffic. By talking to Langen Information and squawking 3704, I am a known quantity to the Radar controller who can easily contact me via Langen Information. Or do you suggest I call Langen Information – which on a beautiful day like today is packed – request leaving their frequency to monitor Langen Radar and then rejoin them, perhaps 6 minutes later? Bearing in mind all the traffic heading from (e.g.) the North Sea Islands via the EDDG TMZ, a heck of a lot of RT would then be created by people leaving and joining the frequency just to transit the TMZ – or are you recommending staying on 129.875, squawking 3704 and monitoring on box 2 the Radar frequency, in which case the controller isn’t going to be aware of you listening in….
Steve6443 wrote:
if I’m already talking to Langen Information because the whole idea is to allow the controller to easily contact any VFR traffic …
The problem is that on a sunny Saturday afternoon the Langen controller can often not “easily” talk to an individual VFR flight because firstly there are too many of them to track individually and secondly the frequency tends to be cluttered in a way that it can take a couple of minutes to get one’s message in.
Anyway I do believe that from tomorrow on Langen controllers will pass you to the relevant airfield tower frequencies on their own when you approach those TMZ/RMZs. Just like they do now when you come close to your destination. Workload and screen clutter and radio permitting.
NB: Those “voluntary” regulations are usually quite shortlived and and soon replaced with mandatory and much more restrictive ones. If you followed the German news, there have been frequent “Feinstaubalarme” (fine dust alerts) in the town of Stuttgart during the last years and especially this winter. People were asked to stop using diesel cars (which allegedly contribute to a large part to this pollution) on these days but take the train instead. Nobody complied. So from next winter on, diesel powered cars are simply banned from Stuttgart whenever a “fine dust alert” is issued.
I’d like to voice an opinion. German pilots tend to think with Langen Information they are talking to ATC in the sense of being watched after. Yes, the guys on the other end of the radio do a good job and one might believe they are watching after the pilot. However, on those sunny days on a weekend it all breaks down and there is no point in even tuning in to ask a question – the whole idea of “Information” is rendered useless.
That issue is tied to “Flugleiter”. What is supposed to be AFIS begins to appear as some sort of ATC giving out instructions to pilots. It’s a cultural thing and hard to change.
Maybe the listening squawks are the beginning of a change.
I fly within the equivalent of a TMZ anywhere within 15 minutes of my base. Outside Class D or B airspace in that area (meaning within Class E airspace) we optionally use air to air communication to coordinate between planes. It works better for high density VFR traffic than radar based control from one guy on the ground.
Optional listening squawk plus Mode S = virtual Class D. It’s a dumb idea that introduces confusing and ambiguous authority to ATC.
Forgive me for playing the devils advocate here, but why don’t we make the whole country a TMZ? Seriously! Transponders aren’t exactly heavy or difficult to operate equipment, and except for ultralights should easily be able to be fitted on any aircraft. Culturally, Germans don’t have such a big problem with this as say Britons. It’s the same with identity cards really which we have and they don’t and I still don’t see the point of resisting them. This would also make anti-collision systems such as TCAS/FLARM much more effective in lower flight levels. An exception could of course be made for ultralights, gliders, balloons etc., maybe below a certain level.
what_next wrote:
Anyway I do believe that from tomorrow on Langen controllers will pass you to the relevant airfield tower frequencies on their own when you approach those TMZ/RMZs. Just like they do now when you come close to your destination. Workload and screen clutter and radio permitting.
As I understand it, it’s not the tower frequency you would tune into, for Muenster / Osnabrueck the people you would tune into would be Langen Radar…..
Forgive me for playing the devils advocate here, but why don’t we make the whole country a TMZ? Seriously! Transponders aren’t exactly heavy or difficult to operate equipment, and except for ultralights should easily be able to be fitted on any aircraft. Culturally, Germans don’t have such a big problem with this as say Britons. It’s the same with identity cards really which we have and they don’t and I still don’t see the point of resisting them. This would also make anti-collision systems such as TCAS/FLARM much more effective in lower flight levels. An exception could of course be made for ultralights, gliders, balloons etc., maybe below a certain level.
EuroGA is usually polite but on other sites you would need to run and hide
For the background, search on “transponder” – some good threads are here and here
Personally I agree with you 100% but there are many pilots who want to remain invisible, for a variety of reasons. Also many don’t want to spend the money. And a few have technical issues e.g. a lack of an electrical system (mostly vintage types and gliders).
