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Mandatory PBN training (merged)

who told you that?

A couple of the residents said that It was always a fine airport and I am sure it is ok still but the IAPs are all lost now. They are still in the AIRAC cycle however… it may be an idea to keep an old database cartridge for the RNAV ones, although AFAIK they get disabled after 2 months or some such.

To add: I have saved the whole set of approaches for EGBE in case anyone needs them. Once ATC is lost, the IAPs get removed from the Jepp databases but nothing prevents user waypoints (carefully verified of course) being used to re-create the IAP.

Is an NDB overlay not a GPS approach in all but name?

Of course but I don’t think flying an NDB approach using the GPS will qualify for the UK CAA PBN signoff. It has to be an RNAV approach of some kind.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

NDB overlay is an RNAV approach(usually advisory). As there is a dearth of LNAV/LPV approaches in the UK, for the purpose of next year’s IR requirement could this not be a means of compliance? :-)

EGNS, Other

The map posted earlier in the thread is the LPV map, there are more LNAV approaches and like Peter I remember a map where you could select which to display, LNAV, LNAV/VNAV, LPV etc

Darley Moor, Gamston (UK)

NDB overlay is an RNAV approach(usually advisory). As there is a dearth of LNAV/LPV approaches in the UK, for the purpose of next year’s IR requirement could this not be a means of compliance? :-)

I am not sure but I don’t think Europe ever did official “overlays”. The USA did them in the early days of GPS. An “overlay” is an explicit authorisation to fly the procedure using GPS.

What we did get in Europe was the Jepp GPS databases containing depictions of navaid approaches. How good these were depended on which GPS. In the KLN94 they ae mostly crap (parts missing and not really flyable). DME arcs were never (?) depicted.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

nothing prevents user waypoints (carefully verified of course) being used to re-create the IAP.

Except the law and PBN rules.

EGKB Biggin Hill

In Class G? I would like to see the references for that, given that DIY approaches are legal for a G-reg.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Flew GPS overlays in the commercial world for several years before retirement for major UK carrier, did some training for approval….(training was largely pointless, just like the requirement being discussed here!)

EGNS, Other

If you are going to RYO approach, you might as well use a portable. I don’t advocate either.

KUZA, United States

I’ve just read in the last FTN (UK training industry newsletter) that you will need PBN privileges on your IR after 25 August 2018 if you want to fly RNAV approaches (normal LNAV GPS approaches, or LPV) in the EU.

This suggests that (they think) without this you can fly enroute IFR, conventional SIDs or STARs, and navaid based approaches e.g. ILS.

How does this apply to FAA IR holders who are still utilising the derogation till April 2019? The FAA allows an FAA IR holder to fly all approaches worldwide – except obviously the odd RNP ones which require special crew approval.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I don’t agree with the interpretation.

you will need PBN privileges on your IR after 25 August 2018 if you want to fly RNAV approaches (normal LNAV GPS approaches, or LPV) in the EU.

Can be true when the statement “you will need PBN privileges on your IR after 25 August 2018 if you want to fly RNAV routes (RNAV 5, RNAV 1, RNP 1) in the EU” is also true.

All IFR routes are RNAV 5, so you cannot fly enroute IFR inside controlled airspace without PBN privileges.

What you can do, for the next two years, is to fly IFR outside controlled airspace and “legacy” approaches (ILS/LOC/NDB/VOR/PAR/SRA) in Class D airspace. That privilege ends in August 2020, when all IR holders must have PBN privileges to have a valid rating.

We have been having a discussion on PPL/IR where it is suggested that those with IMCR privileges (ie most UK IR holders and all UK CPL/ATPL holders) can continue to fly RNP approaches using their IMCR privileges, provided the visibility is greater than 1500m.

But why not just get PBN privileges? The UK CAA has made it very accessible.

EGKB Biggin Hill
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