Graham wrote:
Have I ever had any PBN training since? No.Can my GPS box do them? Yes.
Am I actually allowed to fly RNP (or RNAV, or whatever they’re called this week) approaches? I don’t know.
Do I fly them? Very occasionally, if an ILS isn’t available.
Do I care whether it’s legal or not? Not really.
AFAIK from now on you have to have at at least one approach of the two to be done as RNAV approach, otherwise you are supposed to get “no PBN” endorsement by an examiner.
arj1 wrote:
AFAIK from now on you have to have at at least one approach of the two to be done as RNAV approach, otherwise you are supposed to get “no PBN” endorsement by an examiner.
Literally nothing is required to fly RNAV/RNP on GPS with IMCR/IRR, I don’t recall having “no PBN” on IMCR/IRR tests?
For the IR exam, it’s different what you legally need is 3D approach & 2D approach, these can be 1/ ILS & LOC (executed on CDFA) if you wish or 2 / LPV & LNAV (executed on CDFA) if you like, still people will confuse these with 1 Precision + 1 Non Precision, 1 Conventional + 1 RNP, 1 NDB + 1 ILS, 1 LPV + 1 NDB, 1 ILS + 1 SAR and so on…
The “IR/PBN endorsement” is treated separately from IR initial and annual tests: it’s a one-off, the usual way for GA people to easily comply with all of this mess and quickly ticking all the boxes is to fly ILS & RNP (with SBAS switched off in the navigator), to add complications: one has to plan CONV (ILS, NDB, VOR) to back up RNP at destination or alternate unless weather is VMC++ but that is another IFR operational requirement rather than IR test requirement…
PS: UK CAA won’t issue an IR without NDB, what you actually get is IR/NDB rather than IR/PBN (joking but sadly not far from the truth)
Ibra wrote:
Literally nothing is required to fly RNAV/RNP on GPS with IMCR/IRR, I don’t recall having “no PBN” on IMCR/IRR tests?
Ibra, my comment was re: full IR/CB-IR.
Ibra wrote:
For the IR exam, it’s different what you legally need is 3D approach & 2D approach
Is it that if you want to be able to fly RNAV approaches and get the PBN endorsement, at least on of those approaches during the initial or renewal/reval has to be an RNAV approach? Which creates a problem in the UK, obviously…
Or am I confused here, and the only requirement is 2D+3D?
Again, IR, not IRR.
@Ibra, just checked SRG1157 (revals/renewals), part 3 (called “PBN”), there are two options for the examiner:
I confirm that the applicant has been tested in PBN elements as relevant (Commission Regulation EU 1178/2011 as amended – Annex I, Appendix 7 and 9 Refers)
I confirm that this skill test/proficiency check did not include an RNP APCH and that the applicant has been advised that:
- the PBN privileges of their IR does not include an RNP APCH, and that
- this restriction can be lifted upon completing a proficiency check which includes an RNP APCH.
So I read it as if you had your IR/CB-IR reval/renewal and did NOT have an RNP APCH, then you get an endorsement in your license which says “no PBN”.
Otherwise, IR these days automatically means “yes PBN”.
Literally nothing is required to fly RNAV/RNP on GPS with IMCR/IRR, I don’t recall having “no PBN” on IMCR/IRR tests?
That’s because the IMCR doesn’t need PBN – see previous posts.
UK CAA won’t issue an IR without NDB, what you actually get is IR/NDB rather than IR/PBN (joking but sadly not far from the truth)
Never heard of that, and my JAA IR skills test used a VOR procedure.
@Ibra – could these posts please be more focused on the topic, and perhaps with a few more commas? 
at least on of those approaches during the initial or renewal/reval has to be an RNAV approach? Which creates a problem in the UK, obviously…
You can find them allright* but obviously not LPV, so the hoped for ability to replace the ILS in the skills test (for better airport availability*) will not arrive until this “UK-screwing business” is sorted. Or until the CAAs allow the use of +V instead of LPV for the “precision approach” (very unlikely).
* the usual problem is that most airports with IAPs require you to book a “training slot” and since the FTOs book 1hr at a time, you can easily find that you can’t book anything for ages, and then the wx might be crap. I got lucky just before xmas, at EGHH, where you are not allowed to book before they open 0630 on the day, so their ATC line gets jammed at 0630.
arj1 wrote:
the only requirement is 2D+3D?
For IR test, that is the only requirement out there: 3D + 2D !
For PBN, you need theory course and RNP approach, the latter can be combined with an IR test, IR proficiency check or just standalone in some flight in aeroplane or approved simulator (I did this one), while people like to combine everything in one single test for practical purposes but I think it’s good to decouple things in terms of the actual legal requirements…otherwise things gets invented out of the blue (fly Southend, Lydd or LeTouquet in one single day )
https://www.caa.co.uk/Performance-Based-Navigation-Licence-Endorsement/
So can I legally fly an RNP approach (in the UK) on my IR(R), or not?
It doesn’t seem that there’s anything saying I cannot, but given I’ve never been trained or tested on RNP procedures to allow it would seem at odds with usual regulatory practice.
You can fly any IAP using the IMCR, as published, subject only to the airspace class B-G, UK and dependent territories and the Channel Islands, and the 1500m min vis.
Peter wrote:
You can fly any IAP using the IMCR, as published, subject only to the airspace class D-G, UK and dependent territories and the Channel Islands, and the 1500m min vis.
Class B-G! :) They changed it in ANO 2019(?), so only A is prohibited.
PS: Yes I know that there are no CTRs in A – C. :)
see CAP2138 local copy
Document called “Performance Based Navigation Endorsement:IR Holders(including guidance for IMC and IR R Holders)”. Page 12: “The above administrative process change does not affect holders of an IMC / IR (R) Rating. However, the CAA strongly recommends that IMC / IR (R) holders seek appropriate PBN training prior to attempting a RNP approach.”
Recommendation, not a requirement, just like the increased minima for IR(R) holder.
arj1 wrote:
However, the CAA strongly recommends that IMC / IR (R) holders seek appropriate PBN training prior to attempting a RNP approach
I see, good to know. I’ll need to have a think about how long ago it was that I last considered the CAA a good source of advice or recommendations for anything.
I’ll probably get a better informed opinion on the matter from my dog than I would from the CAA, so I’ll ask him now.
