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ATC arguing with pilot re a request to turn to avoid

I had this today. Shoreham to Bolzano, and over the Alps, FL160, I asked for a “10 deg right to avoid”. There was a big “lump” there, not a TCU really, just some wind-driven formation probably, and at -10C I had no intention of flying through known convective wx in the middle of the Alps.

The lady ATCO took a while to come back and said “there is no weather”. I told her there is and the top of it is about FL200. She did let me do it eventually.

I wonder what they see. It will probably be or some such (there is only one wx radar data set in Europe AFAIK) and that may not show anything if there isn’t much water in it.

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

There is nothing to argue. I just say “turning 10 degrees right to avoid” … it is you who decides, not them. THey cannot see if there is a TCU you want to avoid and have every right to.

Last Edited by at 22 Sep 20:20

No you don’t. If you cannot comply with an instruction/clearance in CAS then you ask for an amended clearance. If this doesn’t work you declare an emergency and out goes the rulebook.

EBST, Belgium

I disagree. First of all the airway is so wide that you have enough flexibility to avoid many of the smaller clouds. But they also cannot force you to fly into a CB.

I have done it many times now: “xyz … turning … to avoid”. Never have I heard a complaint.

Last Edited by at 22 Sep 21:10

Oooooh, do that in UK CAS and you’ll be filling-in paperwork. Clearly you need to turn but if you have left it to the point where you have to turn before you talk………

Last Edited by Dave_Phillips at 22 Sep 21:41
Fly safely
Various UK. Operate throughout Europe and Middle East, United Kingdom

I wonder what they see.

In Germany they have weather radar, but are not allowed to advise you on the basis of what they see.

EGKB Biggin Hill

In terms of permission, I would ask, but only make a turn without permission if I had radar or Stormscope information to say that there was a cell within.

EGKB Biggin Hill

Timothy wrote:

In Germany they have weather radar, but are not allowed to advise you on the basis of what they see.

I dont’t know what they are allowed to do and what not, but on several occasions they have “suggested” a heading to me to avoid precipitation areas on their screen.

EDDS - Stuttgart

Maybe it’s a matter of personality and humanity then. I had contradictory evidence between Golze and Stormscope coming home from Dresden, and was in moderate icing and turbulence, the other day and asked for help from weather radar and was told “I am not up there, I cannot help you.”

Last Edited by Timothy at 22 Sep 22:55
EGKB Biggin Hill

I also was given quite a bit of advice for avoiding storms from German ATC including weather in French airspace. The conversational part was in German. No attempt of avoiding anything was made but obviously it was advice and not instructions where to turn to to avoid.

Frequent travels around Europe
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