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The "Mk 1 Eyeball" / lookout / see and avoid are almost totally useless

Martin – yes was with reference to JasonC’s post. I was guessing that this is the type of technology AWACS would have and I agree seems too large to fit in a “fighter”, never mind anything else.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

@Fuji_Abound the APG radar (effectively any FCR of that generation) provides tracking information (altitude / speed / heading) once a target is locked on in Track While Scan or Single Target Track modes (dynamic info). What it does not is tag it with a “label” like ATC (lack of screen real estate + old tech).

The big difference is that unlike marine and awacs it doesn’t scan 360 degrees but just a cone ahead of the aircraft nose.

NTSB Mid Air see-and-avoid simulation

These reports on several mid-air collisions include flights reconstructions of what the pilots could actually see (or not) from the cockpit.
You can forward to the end, don’t really see the point of the first 3 minutes…

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Pages/2016-midair-presentations.aspx

EGTF, LFTF

Very interesting. I watched the non-CDTI versions in the single of both, using a normal scan pattern. On the C150 version, I timed it at 5 seconds from spotting the conflict to impact, on the San Diego one it was too quick – no chance. And that was with me knowing that something is coming.

Biggin Hill

The one between the Sabreliner and the C172 in California (there’s also a radar ground track video, showing how it unfolded) is probably something to show to those people who keep their transponders turned off and insist see-and-avoid is all anyone ever needs. The cockpit views show that the C172 pilots would never have seen what hit them, it was continuously obscured by aircraft structure until the Sabreliner was actually smashing its way through the cockpit roof.

Andreas IOM

This one, yes.

Constant aspect most of the way

Some significant ATC issues in there too, which shows that even if ATC is good they don’t see everything. I have had loads of cases of unknown/invisible planes in or just outside the Shoreham ATZ; they show up on TCAS but mostly not visual and they are mostly passing through.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

Some significant ATC issues in there too, which shows that even if ATC is good they don’t see everything

KSDM is a contract tower with some trainee controllers. Accidents do happen occasionally anywhere but it’s not a place where you’d want to rely on ATC too heavily. It also has some very different planes in simultaneous operation: I was flying southbound overhead at pattern altitude as ATC called us as traffic to a flight of two F/A-18s on the northside direct downwind entry, not unlike the track shown for ‘EAGLE1’. “Not in sight” is how the lead plane replied, but we could see him and his smoke and hurried south at 80 kts (in a Citabria) to get out of his way and join the southside downwind from the inside. The closure rate was pretty fast.

Incidentally (because I believe FAA cleaned up the situation) the entire KSDM ATC staff was fired a few years ago for splitting shifts (e.g. 4 hrs each versus 8 hrs with two controllers).

Last Edited by Silvaire at 18 Nov 20:59

Don’t know if this has been posted before, but a very interesting presentation on HCAR (horizontal cruising altitude rule) and how it reduces safety by increasing the likelihood of collisions. Lot’s of formulae for those who like that and a couple interesting slides on how individual pilots can behave to improve their own odds….. at least during cruising flight. Interesting reference to the now-abandoned UK approach. Some of the recommendations have been mentioned in this forum. See slides 53/54 after the 1:00 point. Also a few interesting questions.

EAA Webinar – midair collision physics, gambles, & myths

Last Edited by chflyer at 17 Jun 10:30
LSZK, Switzerland

Many thanks for posting that @chflyer – very interesting and makes one realise just how often we get very close to a collision. I moved the post to another previous thread which I think is a lot closer than the previous one which is mostly concerning ADS-B.

Many interesting snippets there. One is that the eye fails to spot aircraft if scanning continuously. One has to move about 10 degrees at a time and stay on each bearing for a few seconds.

There is some good stuff also after the 1:00:00 point, about 10 Global Hawks having a 100% guaranteed destruction if sent to a particular waypoint on converging headings, navigating using GPS

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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