europaxs wrote:
If you want to carry 3 or 4 people along with you and a C150 is too expensive right now, I would seriously ask myself if I’d ever have so much MORE money in the future to OPERATE a Saratoga, Bonnie or the like.
Canuck wrote:
MedEwok, the solution is easy peasy, just buy a share of a good condition and well operated aircraft. A 160hp pa28 or a light 172 will carry two adults and a child (two children if you don’t pack much luggage). A 180 hp variant of either will be a bit better on useful load while still being economical. A 182 is even better, but is a bit more fuel when you are alone.
Back on topic: it would be interesting to know how large a percentage of their income owners are spending. Though I understand people might be reluctant to disclose this figure for privacy reasons (one can easily deduct the total income).
For your situation, it’s going to be either a flying club or a shared ownership.
The problem: Many of the latter don’t place an ad when they’re looking for a new member. They’ll wait until someone comes along who they can trust. So, they’re gonna look around within their direct social environment, put out word with one or the other FI, and within their flying community.
Because renting a plane is one thing. Owning a plane together with other people is an entirely different thing. It involves a lot of trust, both into you as a person, and into your flying habits. Nobody wants to share with a guy who’s a jerk or who’s negligent with the plane, or creates a lot of issues when it comes to who should use the plane, or to cost. I am in no way implying you are, but the flying community is pretty small. So, word gets around, and if you’re really looking for a share, you’ll be eventually offered one or more. But it means you’ll be checked up before. And in most cases, they rather wait until a nice guy comes along, rather than putting an ad into the fliegermagazin or aero. Because putting an ad there kind of is the last resort.
Which means, no matter what you do eventually, you should get connected to your local flying community, which can be found at the local airfield’s flying club(s).
The way to a share in a plane leads through the owners first. Not the other way around :)
MedEwok wrote:
As my career progresses, income could end up anywhere between 100 to 300k a year
Or zero!………Owning an aeroplane can be any amount you want. Donald Trump floats about in his 757. Arab princes in their A380…….Everything in this game is relative. Also, there is never a right time, nor enough time to enjoy your spoils. It is a game of live for the moment. When I was younger, I spent all my time building business. No time to drive cars, nor fly aeroplanes. I had them, but they went nowhere. It actually became a frustration.
Now I have time, but worry about future income. I semi retired…..I thought I would have all the time in the world and actually I do not appear to. So Med, enjoy what you do at the moment be it rent, share, whatever, and FWIW there is never a wrong time to take your PPL.
I think confirmation bias makes people think that a Sierra is less reliable than an Archer because they see more of them, but is that actually true? Are we saying that Peter would have spent less in maintenance if he’d just “wisened-up” and bought a 182RG instead of a TB20?
On average I spend about 30% of my income on planes, but it has been more at times.
I need to work on my flying budget…the 90HP Super Cub comes in around 5%, possibly less.
Jodel D140 Mousquetaire? Factory built, wood and fabric, common engine. Unfortunately manufacturer long gone, so NOT an EASA aircraft, but plans exist.
Unfortunately manufacturer long gone, so NOT an EASA aircraft,
An “EASA aircraft” is any aircraft with an EASA CofA, which is – with a few exceptions – any aircraft with an ICAO CofA. It isn’t necessary for the manufacturer to be still around but – in EASA-land – somebody has to be supporting the Type Certificate (a nice money making scheme which the USA doesn’t have).
Are we saying that Peter would have spent less in maintenance if he’d just “wisened-up” and bought a 182RG instead of a TB20?
I think a 2002 C182 would have cost me the same as my 2002 TB20, because I have not spent significant amounts on the main cash drain (replacing shagged airframe parts) and I maintain it so that hopefully continues for many more years. That assumes similar avionics etc of course.
As regards % of income, for sure few people want to divulge that openly, not least because it would be divisive and would give ammunition to some moaning types – we have already had complaints from 1 or 2 pilots about doing fly-ins to nice places which also happen to not be dirt cheap, but also a straight income figure is rarely the whole picture for the older person who forms the bulk of the PPL demographic. A lot of people have sold up a business and are living off that. In fact the wealthiest people who have ever been on EuroGA and who I have known personally are probably living mostly off capital obtained by selling a business. And in most countries – especially N Europe – it is frowned upon to discuss one’s wealth.
Medewok should be on a good 200k when he becomes a (UK term) consultant, but the trick is to keep that money for things you want to do. Most pilots instead commit a decent income on e.g. a marriage (money makes you a highly desirable magnet of course), a family, kids in private schools, and when I was doing that I needed to take home best part of 100k after tax just to keep all the balls in the air. Thankfully those days are long gone because I would not be able to do that now (I was divorced in 1999 and the kids are past the child maintenance payments). Doctors working in the private sector who manage to keep their trousers done up (or take precautions 
) are rolling in money. They are rolling in confidence too… not to say arrogance 
I have known pilots who were on say 25k and who were doing a lot of flying – way above the UK PPL average of 20-30hrs. But they kept their trousers done up, etc. If you avoid the big commitments which most men get into, usually without considering whether this is going to put an end to their main hobby, you will have lots of spare cash. Some UK syndicates have 20-30 members and because most don’t fly much, and most can’t fly on weekdays, you can get good access on weekdays, and the fixed costs are very low.
Life choices
MedEwok wrote:
I sometimes feel like I did the PPL at the wrong time in life, where time and income are not yet sufficient to make good use of it.
Hah – I sometimes think that, too! Is it wise to spend all that money on flying around now? Or would it have been smarter to save up 10k/year in order to afford a nice aicraft sooner?
OTOH, you never know what life brings and I think the chances that one will pursue a PPL will decrease as time progresses (due to possible other commitments, health, etc.). So I have decided that I’m happy with my decision to start “early” (relatively early.. with other hobbies I consider the age of 4 or 5 early, and the age of 25 “almost too old”).
Patrick wrote:
Hah – I sometimes think that, too! Is it wise to spend all that money on flying around now? Or would it have been smarter to save up 10k/year in order to afford a nice aircraft sooner?
My suggestion would be to buy and fly an inexpensive, easy to maintain plane, one that’s at once cheaper to fly than a rental plane and probably not available for rent anyway because because the average renter would break it. Then learn it, and fly it… lots and lots of hours including maneuvers not yet learned or perfected and landings from every direction and altitude. Fly early before work, fly late after work if you can escape early, fly at lunchtime Try flying through airspace with ATC that may or may not object, just for the experience, and see what happens. Plan out and take trips that challenge you and the plane, it doesn’t matter if they’re not a challenge to somebody else or a different plane. The experience will imprint ‘stick and rudder’ flying onto your brain so you often don’t even need to look at the panel… if there is anything noteworthy on the panel. Then, after you sell it some day and learn your new ‘procedures driven’ plane, one that’s more expensive to operate per hour and suitable for going places in straight lines with everything strategically pre-planned, you will have a wealth of experience and skill that you’d otherwise have missed… and it might (very likely) be helpful one day.
I smiled when reading MedEwok’s comment on the expense associated with “even an ancient Mooney M20”, implying that it would be a modest entry point into aviation. Assuming an old Mooney could be described as ancient, it would probably b e a four cylinder Mooney from the 60s or early 70s. Although these are simple as can be for the intended job they are a focused, high performance point-to-point going places machine by design, a plane that deserves respect and understanding. Once you’ve flown for a while and know that an old Mooney would do the flying you want to do, sure, but I think much about flying and aviation is learned better by owning something more flexible. Personally I never reached the point of wanting the ‘mission focus’ associated with an old Mooney, even if I respect it, and that laser focus is maybe (?) one reason they are relatively affordable to buy.
Patrick wrote:
I’m happy with my decision to start “early” (relatively early.. with other hobbies I consider the age of 4 or 5 early, and the age of 25 “almost too old”).
Become one with a plane as young as possible so that the imprint on your brain is stronger. I started flying at age 15 but didn’t continue until decades later. It was a mistake not to restart sooner. The stuff I learned at 15 still seems more natural somehow than the things I learned in ‘round two’. An ownership experience may also plug you into practical situations and airport relationships that will benefit you later – knowing how things really get done in aviation and who does them is personal power. Those situations and relationships will be more easily found at a young age when people will empathize with you more.
I currently spend a single digit percentage of my gross income on flying, but that’s not terribly meaningful. What is meaningful as Peter points out is how much is left over when you’ve covered your ‘mandatory’ monthly or yearly expenses… which can add up to most of your income regardless of its scale and are mostly mandatory as a result of lifestyle choices.
