GA flight plans and national security

Silvaire wrote:

For VFR within the Schengen zone, flight plans are largely pointless nonsense, a waste of time and a constrain on flexibility – which has value to me. I wouldn’t fly if I had to tell others my plans, and update them. I’d ride my motorcycle instead, as so many in Europe do. YMMV.

I think you are greatly exaggerating here. If a VFR flight plans is the reason for you to not fly, well then it seems you’re not really keen on flying. Of all the nuisances in aviation, this is the least of all.

Compare the procedures you have to follow when flying to/from Canada. Also the number of countries requiring VFR flight plans in Europe is shrinking. It all started with Germany/Austria and now it has been extended to a lot of other countries. One day it will go away. Until then — not something I am really concerned about.

Also the number of countries requiring VFR flight plans in Europe is shrinking

Really?

If so good news but isn’t it mainly just the DACH countries?

achimha wrote:

I think you are greatly exaggerating here. If a VFR flight plans is the reason for you to not fly, well then it seems you’re not really keen on flying. Of all the nuisances in aviation, this is the least of all.

Well, the context of my comments is flying in an environment where nobody I know, let’s say hundreds of pilots, regularly files any kind of flight plan to do any flight, local or cross country. Its just not the norm. My DA 40 owning buddy does a ‘pop-up’ when required for an ILS, but that’s about it. I’m not much of a ‘flight following weenie’ either, I call them up if there’s a reason, for example if I want to fly direct across some Class B that’s on my course. In general I don’t see any utility in en route radio contact or filing flight plans. There’s no obvious reason why it couldn’t be the same in the Schengen zone, especially with low altitude airspace virtually deserted, as it is over much of the continent.

italianjon wrote:

If so good news but isn’t it mainly just the DACH countries?

Yes but that’s the best part of Europe, isn’t it? Poland as well unless controlled airports are involved.Silvaire wrote:

There’s no obvious reason why it couldn’t be the same in the Schengen zone, especially with low altitude airspace virtually deserted, as it is over much of the continent.

No there isn’t, other than it’s been like that forever and predates the tight European integration and it’s not really an issue for anybody. 30 seconds with the tablet and you got your plan, at no extra cost. There is much bigger fish to fry in aviation. For me it’s much more a nuisance that I have to keep foreign currencies when going to Switzerland/Denmark/Poland/etc. than having to file a flight plan.

Europe is a model region when it comes to cooperation of countries. Countries that use to conduct wars for centuries, countries that have very different traditions, languages, legal systems, mode de vivre, etc. At the same time, travelling between the USA and Canada (which to us appears like the USA with kilometers instead of miles) is an administrative hurdle 1000 bigger. So criticizing the EU/Schengen travel difficulties with a US background is not something I can subscribe to…

Its just not the norm.

Forget about norms, especially your own. Do what must be done, and enjoy. Or not. If you can’t enjoy flying due to the minor nuissance of a bit of paperwork, then you don’t fly – but don’t come complaining, it’s your own decision. As Achim says, there are many things much worse in a private pilot’s life.

achimha wrote:

At the same time, travelling between the USA and Canada (which to us appears like the USA with kilometers instead of miles) is an administrative hurdle 1000 bigger.

I’ve never flown to Canada (it would take me days to get there) but my impression is crossing that border is much the same as crossing UK to Schengen, or US to Schengen.

I think it’s true that Europeans think all kinds of interaction with government(s) in daily life, and daily flying, is the norm. I’m not very attracted to it, which is a reason I don’t live there now, I only make enjoyable visits. To each his own, if you don’t mind filing flight plans, endless radio chatter and all that fundamentally unnecessary nonsense, then I agree there are a lot of nice places to fly in the Schengen zone.

Shorrick_Mk2 wrote:

The US probably doesn’t bother with flight plans because they never managed to develop the infrastructure.

Of course the infrastructure is there, it’s called Flight Service Stations (FSS). The difference between the US and Europe WRT VFR FPs is that in the US they serve purely a SAR purpose, whereas – at least in parts of Europe – they also serve an ATC purpose. In the US, ATC don’t know (or care) about your FP, it’s only the FSS system that’s involved. This, btw, also means that you have to call up the nearest FSS if you realize that your ETE is going to be out by more than 30 mins (e.g. due to unforecast headwinds), as they would otherwise initiate SAR. I do file FPs when flying over hostile territory, of which there is quite a bit in the areas surrounding L.A.

We govern ourselves so why shouldn’t we interact with our kind?

It’s true, this forum has a bit of a fetish for regulations, law, what is allowed and not allowed. Wether article 27 subparagraph 37 phrase 3 could be construed to not allow you to fly at 2am in a red airplane unless you have rating x, y, z…

You can’t go as far here as you can in the US where you proclaim your own country, refuse to accept the federal government and shoot trespassers but be assured, there are many people here that are as much a slut for authority as in the US.

Just don’t compare the US to Europe. We’ve had VFR flight plans before Columbus set off to conquer America. We have a lot of diversity in a very small region and despite the incredible overhead of not everything being the same for 300m people like in the US, we’re doing surprisingly well on a global scale. I very much enjoy this diversity and want to keep it. It always amazes me that I only have to fly 3 hours (Cessna) to an island where a sink has two water taps, one freezing cold and the other burning hot. In the US I fly 8h (airline) and besides the landscape, hardly anything is different at all.

achimha wrote:

In the US I fly 8h (airline) and besides the landscape, hardly anything is different at all.

I can fly 10 minutes from my base and things are very, very different

I enjoyed reading your comments.