Mooney_Driver wrote:
you can’t connect any non TSO’d panel mounted device to something in the panel like an AP on certified planes
You can’t add/change/remove ANY equipment in a certified plane without both the manufacturer and the FAA okaying it. I assume it’s the same in Europe. Since the thread is about fiddling with nav equipment the assumption was made that this was not a certified plane being modified.
You can’t add/change/remove ANY equipment in a certified plane without both the manufacturer and the FAA okaying it.
Totally incorrect, fortunately.
You could read the Sandel SN3500 installation notes on my website, to get started.
I have seen a handheld Garmin, maybe a 295, connected to drive an autopilot of some older kind, like a Century something
I do vaguely recall seeing such a signal on the 496 I have in the yoke as a low cost GPWS. The writeup is on my website (sorry writing with a phone). But I don’t think it has the right signals and some bodge may be needed. For sure not legal, too.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
I understand that this works in the US. In Europe, you can’t connect any non TSO’d panel mounted device to something in the panel like an AP on certified planes. There are several planes which do have even airgizmo or other mounts for the 495 or 695’s but they can not interact with other avionics.
I don’t think that’s true. Jesse could elaborate, I’m sure. I think the rule is that such devices must be just “consumers” – just receiving data. So your docked handheld can get for example flight plan. Given two-way wireless communication is now possible between certified and non-certified devices, I assume it would be possible to do the same for wired. However, driving an autopilot… that’s a bit of a different ball game (in my view).
USFlyer wrote:
You can’t add/change/remove ANY equipment in a certified plane without both the manufacturer and the FAA okaying it.
Nonsense.
Martin wrote:
Given two-way wireless communication is now possible between certified and non-certified devices, I assume it would be possible to do the same for wired. However, driving an autopilot… that’s a bit of a different ball game (in my view).
Well, that is what I am talking about. The OP wants a GPS to connect to his AP. With a non-certified device that would not be possible, even if the device has the possibility.
Yes, I am aware that I can connect the GPS695 to e.g. the fixed installed power flarm to get Traffic. It was not possible on the other hand to display the traffic of the Power Flarm on the GNS430, which would make a much better readout for the traffic as the small screen on the PF.
USFlyer wrote:
You can’t add/change/remove ANY equipment in a certified plane without both the manufacturer and the FAA okaying it. I assume it’s the same in Europe.
This is untrue. It is untrue for Europe as well. What some tend to forget, as that you can not remove everything without an approval. We did have this discussion before, but you can not remove any standard items (which where part of the certification) of the aircraft, without approval. You can do this with optional equipment. Most avionics are optional so aren’t an issue. For example you can not just remove the landing light if you don’t need it, when this was standard on your aircraft. In those cases you can either replace it with the same (no paperwork), replace it by other (minor change, or CS-STAN) or remove it all (this would require paperwork, again when this was standard, not if it was optional equipment).
Martin wrote:
I don’t think that’s true. Jesse could elaborate, I’m sure. I think the rule is that such devices must be just “consumers” – just receiving data. So your docked handheld can get for example flight plan.
Correct.
Martin wrote:
Given two-way wireless communication is now possible between certified and non-certified devices, I assume it would be possible to do the same for wired. However, driving an autopilot… that’s a bit of a different ball game (in my view).
This is highly limited and requires seperate approvals, for the two communication. Driving an autopilot might be possible, but would require a major change at a five number figure. I think I have seen it once where an university used their own hardware for driving the autopilot. The FAA is more liberal on this point.
I think the rule is that such devices must be just “consumers” – just receiving data. So your docked handheld can get for example flight plan.
There is a widespread opinion in the business which disagrees.
All you can connect is what is in the STC – basically in the IM.
Obviously I think that is bollox.
Jesse wrote:
The FAA is more liberal on this point
The FAA does not allow tablets to be used for anything other than a backup source for positional awareness. And can never be used as primary.
Tablets used as an EFB are legal for charts and plates, but must also refer to current data not more than 28 days old.
IFR is more strict. All equipment must be panel mounted and powered by the aircraft electrical system. And when flying RNAV two RAIM capable GPS/WAAS recievers must be in the panel. VFR can use portable GPS for nav but the ADS-B mandate requires a non-portable RAIM capable GPS/WAAS receiver coupled to the ADS-B out for altitude info.
Please post references to the above statements.
USFlyer wrote:
The FAA does not allow tablets to be used for anything other than a backup source for positional awareness. And can never be used as primary.Tablets used as an EFB are legal for charts and plates, but must also refer to current data not more than 28 days old.
IFR is more strict. All equipment must be panel mounted and powered by the aircraft electrical system. And when flying RNAV two RAIM capable GPS/WAAS recievers must be in the panel. VFR can use portable GPS for nav but the ADS-B mandate requires a non-portable RAIM capable GPS/WAAS receiver coupled to the ADS-B out for altitude info.
Some of these statements only apply to certificated operators (airline, charter, etc.) or to large turbine aircraft. EFB can’t be used by these operators to depict aircraft own ship because airline pilots are too untrustworthy and might navigate by using the EFB if it showed them where they are. Interestingly enough, it can be used on the ground as long as the GS is <80 Kts and in the air, a feature can be provided to center the map on the current position, but don’t dare let the pilot know or he might crash. :)
For part 91 operations, two independent navigation systems are not required except for oceanic or remote operations. Since a portable system is a PED (91.21), the limitations for part 91 users are minimal and these systems are not certified in any way, so current data is not a requirement. Even for part 91 operators, the portable GPS or EFB is for situational awareness and never to be used for primary navigation, with the exception of an emergency, when all rules may be superseded if needed. VFR pilots have no restrictions on them at all.
With the advent of Aspen’s connected panel and later the Garmin Flight Stream, flightplan routes may be transferred to/from an EFB and my installation provides panel mount GPS position, pressure altitude, traffic, and weather to my iPad from the certified equipment.
There is not a requirement for a WAAS position source for ADS-B, but most will implement it that way because unaugmented GPS will only meet the requirements of the regulation 95+% of the time. The actual regulation is performance based and does not specify SBAS as a requirement. The airlines don’t have WAAS and are petitioning the FAA to allow them to use their current TSO C129 GPS information for this purpose. They really don’t want WAAS and are trying to run out the clock waiting for the next generation of GPS that includes L1/L5 dual frequency instead. Regardless, the position source does not provide the pressure altitude, this comes from the altitude encoder or flight data system as a separate input to the ADS-B Out system. In the EAB world, the US regulation was recently edited to permit equipment that meets the TSO standards as certified by the manufacturer, but is not TSO’ed. Certified aircraft need the TSO and an STC for the specific combination of position source and ADS-B Out equipment.
Even for part 91 operators, the portable GPS or EFB is for situational awareness and never to be used for primary navigation
Is this last bit written somewhere?
What is “primary navigation” in VFR after all? One can always say that despite all the gadgets, primary navigation is always “by looking out”.
But by after all, the majority of people nowadays navigate (in the more technical sense) by portable GPS.
