JasonC wrote:
If that takes you into CAS, that will be your problem no his. He will argue that he hadn’t identified you so did not know you were that close to the LTMA.
Oh, I imagine that there would be an interview at the ANSP as well 
Timothy wrote:
Oh, I imagine that there would be an interview at the ANSP as well
Yes, but I doubt that will help our pilot much.
No, both are to blame, I was just taking issue with:
will be your problem not his
I imagine that both would have a problem.
I actually think that the result for the pilot would be light, as he was given an (albeit illegal) instruction that could be interpreted as a clearance.
When IFR in controlled airspace with a flight plan, that rarely fails these days as the whole “system” is designed with getting a flight through all ATC sectors seamlessly. Before the Eurocontrol IFPS sectors sometimes did not receive flight plans and an ATC had to fix that in the background, but that was before my time.
On ad-hoc clearances this can go wrong a bit more easily. I remember being handed over by Ostend to Brussels VFR around FL70 or so, and when I checked in with Brussels it went like this:
Brussels, G-XXXX, Flight Level 70
G-XXXX, Brussels, sqawk Ident (in a surprised tone)
Squawking ident, G-XXXX
G-XXXX, you are in Ostend airspace, contact them immediately on ….. (now slightly agitated)
Ummm.. They just handed me over to you, G-XXXX
G-XXXX, standby
G-XXX, We are routing direct Olno and are just at your boundary, can we continue?? (Definitely worried nowj
G-XXXX, cleared direct Olno
Other than being vecored around Brussels, nothing else after that…
Peter suggested I might post something on my observation of FAA practice, observation because happily I haven’t experienced it personally (yet!)
Most of my flying is in an area with very complex controlled airspace (Classes B and D) surrounded by Class E. What I’ve seen for planes that enter a Class B without a clearance is a phone call to TRACON upon landing and then if the phone call does not go well, a FSDO meeting, sometimes followed by license suspension and training to regain the license. In one case the pilot was found old and decrepit (at least that seemed the case to me) and the FAA training scenario was enough to convince the guy to quit flying instead. I’d guess it may be a common FAA strategy in that circumstance. I’ve never personally seen or heard of anybody being monetarily fined.
The TRACON phone calls seem to be very polite, I was standing nearby when a friend had one, basically asking if my friend understood what had happened, followed by my friends explanation of distraction or reasonable confusion plus apology, followed by please be careful, have a nice afternoon sir.
A few years ago, I think I spent maybe <1 minute in London class A (but not 100% sure). A climbing turn to avoid cloud, and told London Information I was doing it: they initially said ‘ok’, then sounded stressed. I was expecting a letter in the post, but nothing arrived. Maybe it wasn’t followed up because I wasn’t hiding anything..? Lesson learnt: stay farther away from Alpha to provide enough space to manoeuvre.
Thinking about Peter in the Calais ZIT, he would probably have had a visit from the police if he were French. What powers do an NAA have with a pilot licensed in a different country? I assume it’s outside their jurisdiction (if that’s the right word), but severe cases are referred back to the issuing NAA? Or would the UK CAA also pursue a French/German/other pilot?
I had a very near miss with a motorglider in Lyon’s class C a long time ago, where I gave the controller a mouthful constructive criticism on providing separation. The other aircraft must have been non-transponder, and the controller was upset: if it means being taken off duty and a lot of paperwork for something that isn’t your fault I can see why.
Reading the posts, the reactions do seem disproportionate. The NealCS and Norman examples are verging on ridiculous.
Thinking about Peter in the Calais ZIT, he would probably have had a visit from the police if he were French. What powers do an NAA have with a pilot licensed in a different country? I assume it’s outside their jurisdiction (if that’s the right word), but severe cases are referred back to the issuing NAA? Or would the UK CAA also pursue a French/German/other pilot?
That was the infamous Blayais one in 2003. I wrote more here. There is an ICAO provision for CAAs to co-operate in pursuing pilots who have landed back home in another country. I don’t think it happens often; at a wild guess, and having spoken to the CAA years ago, a few dozen a year between say France and the UK. One famous UK case was a Belgian pilot who busted the Eastbourne air show some years ago; he was fined 5k. He diverted from a planned route to do sightseeing, but this kind of bust is easily done because, on say an IFR flight, before or after London Control are handling you, this can happen, and the very visible air show busts are always prosecuted. You have to get area notams before any flight, and in the summer this is absolutely essential.
The other aircraft must have been non-transponder
Like most of UK Class G traffic nowadays… a legacy of the current UK CAA approach. I have heard of data points to the contrary from a few years ago (yours is one, and Noe’s further back is another) but zero from the present era. Two more data points the other day, with no previous busts, who went straight to the £400 Gasco job.
One thing I wonder is whether the CAA and its man in charge of this policy even know that the infringement exam has bogus questions in it. There is no way to check this without oneself potentially ending up on a “watch list”. And failing that exam leads to … the £400 Gasco job which is in effect a large fine which was never imposed by a court.
With mounting evidence that nearly all infringers, no matter how minor, get sent to the “£400” Gasco hotel session, I understand that a number of UK pilots and other GA bodies have sent in FOIA requests to the CAA on the numbers which currently get sent down various “enforcement” paths.
One of them appears here although I have no idea how that site works. Do you enter the request there and they send it to the organisation?
Well, well, well, the above FOIA request (BTW, I have absolutely no idea who the requester is, and it is quite likely to be a pseudonym, for obvious reasons if he is a pilot in the UK!) didn’t get very far.
The CAA did publish some stuff from 2017 but is trying hard to keep the current numbers secret.
I find the justification of the CAA poor and do hope Mr Lawson answer back. Yes the initial MOR is protected by the EU registration. But the actions of the CAA are not. And publisihing overall numbers cannot be assimilated to publishing confidential data.
