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National CAA policies around Europe on busting pilots who bust controlled airspace

Timothy – but that doesnt make sense. There are good a bad policemen, good and bad judges, good and bad instructors, the list is endless.

Instructors help prevent pilots stalling into puppy farms, and schools, but cant be trusted to help infringement education?

Is that really your view?

No, and it is that kind of Daily Mail characterisation that makes the debate so difficult.

EGKB Biggin Hill

It may be easy to become a CRI, but AFAICS very few CRIs are doing any serious flying to improve the general flying community. It is a bit of paper which most CRIs I know collected but few use it for anything.

And FIs tend to be avoided as much as possible. The main post-PPL FI contact is once every 2 years, and he will sign your logbook if you don’t kill him. Most pilots, once out of the PPL sausage machine, tend to avoid contact with a school as much as possible.

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Fuji_Abound wrote:

We know most infrigments occur in the south east

Actually – we don’t! According to the most recent statistics we have, they mostly happen in the north west, with Barton based pilots alone being 6% of ALL infringements (with twice as many infringements as the next worst airfield). If you look at the chart you can see some potential for it – complex surrounding airspace with very low floors (in AGL) with lots of hilly terrain in a maritime environment that tends to gather clouds, plus a busy narrow corridor full of microlights which has an even lower CAS floor and travels over a densely populated area (meaning pilots simultaneously have to always have a field picked out in case of engine failure, while scanning for traffic, and trying to avoid an airspace bust, in air that is often very thermic on a sunny day – I’ve hit 1000fpm thermals in the Manchester LLR (Warrington kicks off very strong thermals) and it takes a lot of attention to altitude to avoid an inadvertent bust).

If CAIT is still doing “pre-crime”, then I have to wonder how many false positives it generates when a pilot hits a thermal and briefly begins climbing at 1000fpm (easily detectable with the 25ft resolution of Mode-S) but never actually busts airspace.

Last Edited by alioth at 18 Jun 10:45
Andreas IOM

Most FIs fly every day in the local patch.

You may not like them because they dont have IRs and undertake many inter country flights but they are very capable of running through a script with a pilot on airspace avoidance I believe.

Agreed, but most PPLs avoid having contact with them It is like seeing an AME

with twice as many infringements as the next worst airfield

The LTMA, however, encloses several airports.

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

The LTMA, however, encloses several airports.

Maybe so, but Manchester alone has 17% of the busts, compared with 14% for London. Manchester stands head and shoulders above the south east in this dubious ranking.

Last Edited by alioth at 18 Jun 10:51
Andreas IOM

Why is the UK the odd one out?

I think it’s because some of those historically in power have been in denial of all of the problems that cause infringements, and/or haven’t drawn up a joined up plan for the various parties (not just pilots) to fund and solve it. If we’re not careful, pilots could end up as the scapegoat to all things gone wrong.

The more anyone waves the “We’re superior to the USA even though they have no serious infringement issues / But it’s not invented here / Why change it’s always been done this way / I’m paid full-time but only work part-time” type of cards, then we’d be sitting here in another 10 years time going round in circles.

Last Edited by James_Chan at 18 Jun 11:12

You may not like them because they dont have IRs

That’s the end of my involvement. Well done. You can now rant and rave all you like without any interference from reality.

EGKB Biggin Hill

Timothy – oh my goodness, I was responding to Peter’s point that Peter was suggesting some pilots dont like having anything to do with instructors.

I feel a little like you as well. All we get are people rehearsing the script, and then getting upset that there is another opinion, which doesnt agree with the script. It was that I feared from the very start in this discussion.

I think for one moment you should consider individuals’ position. The reality is that the more you are involved in a process, the more you defend that process and deny criticism. How many times do we see that in society. I dont mean with malice, I mean with human nature. If you stopped for one moment you would surely realise that you are very involved.

That is also true of some others on here. I accept for example that if you have infringed, and have been or about to go on one of the courses, you MAY have an axe to grind.

In all conscious, thank my lucky stars, I have not been on the course, I have not infringed, I am not involved in this process, I am not involved in the wheels of GA, I am a very plain and simple pilot who enjoys a some simple flying and am doing my best to understand the rational behind the current policy.

So by all means throw your toys out, I think it is a shame, but it doesnt make any difference to me, other to convince me even more we are dealing with egos that are very easily upset. I am sorry to be brutal, but at least you know I am honestly forthright, it isnt personal, I would say the same regardless in the same situation because I dont need to worry about upsetting people for political gain.

As to reality – what is reality? Your reality? The reality that we have a policy with which it would seem there is disagreement? The reality that a policy cannot be robustally discussed. That also sounds to me like Daily Mail politics or worse, Chinese politics.

No, these things can always be changed if there is sufficient desire. I am not saying yet this requires change, I think we are simply trying to establish the facts.

I know you will disagree, but I was told in writing by AOPA UK that the IMCr was dead and buried (and I still have the email). And I mean not dead and burried in the fullness of time, but back then when the whole issue arose, and it would be gone within two years. I was also told in writing that AOPA UK did not support the IMCr. I was told that the CAA agreed with this position. Enough pilots said that was not good enough and surprise surprise everyone’s position changed surprisingly quickly. There were even those who denied they had turned 180 degrees! Unfortunately this leads to a great deal of mistrust.

As I said before when you see a reticience to answer any reasonable questions I suspect we all wonder what is going on – and I feel that in this discussion and with all the carefully scripted “press releases”. Sorry, but that is just how I see it at the moment.

So we will carry on having the discussion, it would be a great deal better with your contribution, but we are all free to contribute or not it seems to me as we will, so there the matter must rest.

Last Edited by Fuji_Abound at 18 Jun 11:40
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