Presumably a UK pilot, with a plane with decent size tanks, has a massive incentive to buy fuel abroad.
Its not an unprecedented approach... Once upon a time (20 years ago), in a land far away, there was a gigantic T-Bone (Twin Bonanza) that existed primarily to make short hops to Mexico, where it would top off its 180 gallon tanks. Oddly, after it returned to base its tanks could quickly be found near empty again :-)
At that time PEMEX, a government entity that set prices by some unknown method, did not follow the US AVGAS market too closely.
Presumably a UK pilot, with a plane with decent size tanks, has a massive incentive to buy fuel abroad.
But that's practical only if he lives on/near the south coast.
Or always fly with a mate who is an instructor...
Hodja, I think Peter and others kindly explained 'duty' earlier in this thread. The relevant links for UK are here and here
Using your figures
and Mooney Driver will note that duty is more expensive on AVTUR, fuelling(sorry!) his conspiracy theory..
The HO105 form allows you to offset duty with the fuel you are exporting (outside the UK) on an H060 form, however I read that you must always submit both forms if any part of your flight takes on fuel in UK for 'pleasure'.
Jan, like it! Except I imagine that vessel would attact double duty,tax and regulation from both EASA and a forthcoming EU car regulator :)
Mooney Driver, I guess most share your frustrations here. AVGAS was one third of the price just 5 years ago and most places I fly to, local pilots spend all their time talking about flying rather then doing it. Yet each hour flown supports many 'real' jobs and maintains skills currency, but perhaps that is for a different thread:).
Thanks to what next for his succinct answer to the OP. I have really enjoyed reading the other replies too. I guess my query was as a potential diesel aircraft buyer. It was aimed at exploring if there were still any jurisdictions in Europe with a more welcoming attitude to arriving diesels. With yet more extra forms and duty to pay, and not even a waiver for personal training flights, there doesn't seem to be much scope for 'pleasure' for anyone operating one privately in UK..
Hi Silvaire,
thanks for your insight. I did think there might be a lot of c&b to this insurance lament in the US.
In the US I understand it that at times insurances will flatly refuse pilots with less than 500 hours or so before they can get insurance on a pretty normal airplane (such as a Piper Arrow).
I bought my first aircraft, a type with a notably challenging record for ground handling, with no Pilot Certificate. It was $1200 per year for full coverage insurance.
Mexico and Canada are no particular problem except for the need to show up with the customs guys within a short time window.
So you're at the pumps refuelling your privately owned DA42 or Centurion diesel-converted C172 wondering if there is extra duty to be paid.
Back to the original question.
Having never pumped fuel in the UK myself before, pardon the naive question:
What is this "extra duty" you're all talking about & how much is it exactly?
Looking at Shoreham I see avgas is currently going for GBP2.06/l & Jet A GBP1.04/l...
So how much would a private recreational pilot be paying in total for avgas & Jet A?
thankfully this forum has so far been spared by the pilot/trolls from other places, but it will only be a question of time until they do turn up
They will turn up allright (in fact loads of the well known ones already read the site) but they know that any offensive postings will just get deleted.
We don't have advertising so we don't need to support "activity" to support advert clicks. The moment you carry advertising you are forced to let a lot of offensive stuff through because threads where there is a really good fight generate 10x the advert clicks.
Actually, with the EU and Schengen we almost are
I don't think Europe would ever be a uniform airspace like the USA, because of the massive cultural differences.
If you want to sell a product to all of Europe, you need a local dealer, who has to appear genuinely local, in each major country: UK, Germany, France, Italy, Spain and absolutely so in all of those. I've been doing this for 35 years now... There are language issues, for a start, which is probably the #1 reason most European pilots never fly to another country, even within Schengen which makes a simple burger run really quite simple. But there are also attitude issues. In the USA, 99% of people regard themselves as "American" first whereas in Europe probably only 1% regard themselves as "European" first.
And yes the USA has a very good AOPA - still very good despite their recent problems.
Hi Achim,
Insurance is very easy to get in Europe but very hard to get in the US and much more expensive unless you have a long track record.
Yea, I heard about that. I wonder if that is actually really appropriate what is going on there at times. If a European CAA certifies you to fly a certain type of airplane and gives you the proper endorsement, then what insurances will do is take certain edge values and calculate your premium. I recall mine were 100 / 150 / 500 hours or so plus the IR as the highest class, at which different discounts on the nominal premium would be given. In the US I understand it that at times insurances will flatly refuse pilots with less than 500 hours or so before they can get insurance on a pretty normal airplane (such as a Piper Arrow). Wasn't that one of the reasons Cirrus and Columbia went for fixed gear? Is it actually legal what they do? Some of the prices I heard were so ridiculous that they actually start performing like the nutters we are talking about. Either someone has a license and the necessary endorsements and then he should get insurance at a normal rate. Or he has not and therefore won't get insurance.
Other than others in here I do not regard the US nor the FAA as the promised land any more than Europe. The main difference is in the general attitude and the lobby GA has here and in the US. AOPA US is a totally different story than here. They are a real power whereas over here, not many politicians have heard of them, but all of them know their local anti noise groups.
First of all, the US have almost no neighboring countries and for 95% of the US citizens those are beyond sensible reach.
Yea, well, but they are also a tad bigger. If e.g. the European fantasy of a US of E would ever become reality, we'd be in a similar position there. Actually, with the EU and Schengen we almost are. Yea, it's easy to fly within both of them, but leave the EU or Schengen and things start to get difficult, particularly if the EU states decide to do away with border crossing approved airports the way many have done in recent years.
The last two years have been rather positive in regards to regulation. CBM IR / Enroute IR, the new cost sharing policy, etc. are all good news. SET AOCs are coming, too.
I do hope they are not just vapourware. I somehow am very sceptical about the IR revision until it becomes reality, there are way too many folks who are fighting very dirty to stop it. A lot of ATC organisations are violently against it, as they claim that ATC will not be able to handle all that traffic this rule would generate. Others tell me they would like to ban all aircraft with less than 200 kts cruise and 160 kts approach speed from the larger airports in order not to mess up the airliner flow, which often exists only in their dreams. I have the impression that the discussion about those things are mainly spread in order to lull the European pilots into a false sense of security and then have it collapse all around them.
Yea, the US has restrictive entry procedures, but so does Canada and so do some European countries which has become a real hurdle for both airplanes operating from / to the EU or from Schengen to and from Non Schengen.
And of course there is the cost exploseion in recent years, with no trend visible to the opposite.
And yes, thankfully this forum has so far been spared by the pilot/trolls from other places, but it will only be a question of time until they do turn up. It comes with size. I can see that in the swiss forum, which used to be a very easy and nice place but in the mean time has been taken over by people who have totally destroyed it's useability. Pity. I hope this one stays as it is, it has become my first place to visit every day by now.
I feel reasonably unlimited in my flying, both local and within Europe.
So do I and that includes taking my airplane outside of Europe. From the list that Mooney Driver mentions, a few things strike me as actually being advantages for European pilots like
are allowed to transition to a complex aircraft (Ret/var Prop)
It is not easy to get complex type approval in the US, especially when you want to own such an aircraft and get insurance. Insurance is very easy to get in Europe but very hard to get in the US and much more expensive unless you have a long track record. When I moved from a C172 to a TR182 (retractable high performance complex), the insurance didn't even blink, they took the C172 time as experience and gave me the very same risk premium. Unthinkable in the US. Just last year I was denied to land on grass airfields and concrete airfields under 3000ft in a rented C172 for insurance reasons...
or
Europe really is starting to become a no fly zone for anyone who wishes to keep their sanity.
The opposite is true. First of all, the US have almost no neighboring countries and for 95% of the US citizens those are beyond sensible reach. If you want to fly to e.g. Canada (which is like the northern part of the USA), you have to follow some really stupid bureaucratic procedure for entering and leaving the US, have a high probability of getting your airplane searched and sniffed through, whereas in Europe I can just fly. For most countries I don't need customs/immigration and for some not even a flight plan. Being able to decide that I will now fly to e.g. the Canary Islands, file a flight plan and 3 minutes later start the engine and take off means freedom to me.
The last two years have been rather positive in regards to regulation. CBM IR / Enroute IR, the new cost sharing policy, etc. are all good news. SET AOCs are coming, too.
Silvaire, Mooney driver,
Yes, compared to GA heavens like the US, things are a lot more strict here. I suppose that if you are raised in the European aviation scene, things are not that disastrous though.. I feel reasonably unlimited in my flying, both local and within Europe.
I don't know about these fora and these people that propose these silly things. All the pilots I know, quite a few, would never think of such idiotic ideas. And, like Peter says, there are good people around that are reasonably successful in fighting burocrats who are, lets say, overzealous.
Maybe I am too naive, but I somehow don't think that there are 'people out there that try to kill GA'. And if there are, they will probably not be successful in the end.
