Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

Today - airspace

It is certainly an "interesting" discussion topic that ATC should give somebody busting CAS an automatic clearance to continue the flight, if there is no conflicting traffic. Even in the USA you can't do that - even though you can enter Class D and I think C also, upon first establishing a two way radio contact.

I don't know why they wouldn't. Their job is to serve you and separate traffic. What better way to do both than remaining in contact, especially if you're lost. Their job is not to judge your competence, perhaps especially when its lacking! It's entirely possible you're a student pilot with only 15 hrs total time. That said, if you bust US Classes B or C airspace the approach controller would not typically know who you are or who you're talking to, if anybody, so he would have no way to make contact. He may follow you on the screen until he figures out where you're going, then if that's an ATC-controlled facility he'll call them up and ask them to relay a phone number and request to call.

For US Classes B & C you need a clearance, for Class D you need only 2-way communication. You can fly coast to coast NORDO given that most US airports (numerically speaking) are uncontrolled with Class E airspace in between. And if all you've got is a handheld, for instance when flying an antique to Oshkosh, you'd probably turn it off en route between ATC controlled airports to save the batteries.

Well, yes, sure, but if somebody is busting CAS they are prob99 not talking to the controller for that CAS, because if they were, they would prob99 be aware where the CAS is, and would not be busting it in the first place.

Gatwick has many frequencies but the one to call up for a transit is shown on the chart, as 126.825. You can see the Gatwick CAS (just about) in the bottom right of this slightly old chart.

But as I say in this case the pilot wasn't in a position to ask for a transit. He was well up in the Class A.

Nothing is likely to happen. What happens is that Gatwick radar can see where this chap is going to, and will phone up Shoreham ATC and get them to maybe phone him up after the landing. People who get prosecuted tend to be those who either did a high profile job (e.g. busting a TRA around an air show) or they busted CAS and were arrogant at the interview. Most of the prosecutions are over public transport without an AOC... with a few funny ones like the 20k fine for the "pilot" whose Vari-Ez "vanished" in the SE UK, and later was found teleported in Switzerland, non radar, non radio, non flight plan, non clearance, etc. If he was a UK trained PPL he should have got an award for his navigation skills.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

For US Classes B & C you need a clearance, for Class D you need only 2-way communication. You can fly coast to coast NORDO given that most US airports (numerically speaking) are uncontrolled with Class E airspace in between. And if all you've got is a handheld, for instance when flying an antique to Oshkosh, you'd probably turn it off en route between ATC controlled airports to save the batteries.

Only class B requires a clearance in the US. One must establish radio contact with ATC prior to entering Class C. Class C requires a transponder with mode C or mode S. Class D only requires establishing radio contact and there is not a transponder requirement.

KUZA, United States

That is a great system but - in the European context - one needs to be aware that it is well sub-ICAO.

Also I don't think the USA has filed a difference to ICAO - as with many other differences.

In Europe, you need an explicit clearance for any CAS entry.

France, however, works it informally and they rarely use a formal clearance phrase. But then France has a joined-up radar control system so they know who is doing what, which enables them to be relaxed about it.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Only class B requires a clearance in the US. One must establish radio contact with ATC prior to entering Class C

Thanks for that correction on Class C - I've failed another memory test!

In Europe, you need an explicit clearance for any CAS entry

One of the global differences I notice in Europe is the emphasis on "Controlled Air Space" as a concept. US practice focuses more on the letter of the airspace and there is a tighter correlation between letter and use: for instance all ATC controlled airports are Class D or above and all airports in Class G are totally uncontrolled.

US Class E airspace is "Controlled" only in the sense that ATC services are available, not that ATC contact is mandatory. So the concept of CAS loses its meaning and it becomes better to put aside the CAS concept and focus solely on the airspace class by letter.

Just an observation - its interesting to look at practices and limiting cases to understand how a system works in principle.

Most of the prosecutions are over public transport without an AOC... with a few funny ones like the 20k fine for the "pilot" whose Vari-Ez "vanished" in the SE UK, and later was found teleported in Switzerland, non radar, non radio, non flight plan, non clearance, etc. If he was a UK trained PPL he should have got an award for his navigation skills

A guy I know did something like that in the mid-80s flying an aircraft from the UK to a Spanish off airport movie set. His radio quit shortly after takeoff, and (as he told it to me) he then decided he'd had a long enough delay. He flew low level, stopped once for fuel in France, and then direct. After landing among a lot of other aircraft on site, he headed home on the ground. Nobody ever caught up with him.

All this debate is fine but if the guy was busting class A twice then there is very little you can say. He either didn't know or didn't care. Either way, it is a problem. To suggest he should be given a pop up clearance as he wasn't doing much harm is.....a surprising point of view.

When an aircraft does that and is not in touch with a known unit, they assume he could do anything and have to vector aircraft accordingly.

EGTK Oxford

Certainly a pilot should watch his airspace and request clearances where needed.

But equally Shoreham didn't handoff/co-ordinate with Gatwick, and Gatwick didn't grant a clearance for whatever reason.

Over-classification of airspace?

This and the fact there's so many frequencies to call and overlapping areas of responsibility in the same airspace looks like they're there to catch you out rather than become an enabler of safe and efficient flight.

Handoff from who to who?

The airspace to the east of Shoreham is Class G. Free flying airspace, non-radio, do what you like, VFR or IFR (changeover purely in your head).

Long may it stay that way!

If this guy had been getting a service in there (and Farnborough East is the only radar option, though I guess a masochist could call up London Info) and was aware of his position etc then one could argue there should be a facility for asking Gatwick for a transit. And there is! You can call up Gatwick Director yourself on 126.825, if you have the CAA map with you in which case you can read the numbers straight off that. So actually it is very easy. And Gatwick will give you a transit if

  • you ask for one, and
  • you sound as if you know your position and how to fly from there

But you will never get a VFR transit of Class A. Changing that is a separate argument.

Let's look at that...

The IMC Rating allows IFR in Class D,E,F,G.

If what is now Class A was say Class D, the IMCR would have never been established.

Why?

Because the "standard" of UK private pilot training is judged to be nowhere near good enough to allow the pilots to mix with airliners in the same airspace.

Every other country needs the full IR for that.

The IMCR works in the UK precisely because the people who use it for IFR are excluded from most of the airspace where they might badly screw up. It is basically a facility for drilling holes in clouds at low level, but one can't use it to climb up high on a Eurocontrol flight plan and fly 300nm at FL150 from Shoreham to Aberdeen.

An IMCR which allowed PPLs to fly through say the LTMA would have been politically squashed before being born.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

the "standard" of UK private pilot training is judged to be nowhere near good enough to allow the pilots to mix with airliners in the same airspace. Every other country needs the full IR for that.

Are there no European countries that use Class B, versus low altitude Class A, around terminal areas for CAT operations? In the US that statement does not apply for any pilot other than one flying on a student pilot certificate, minus extra training for Class B airspace. I think this is historically linked to the country having rejected the idea of a State owned airline when that was in vogue. All aircraft operations therefore have equal priority in the eyes of the State.

Regardless, people tend to measure up or down to expectations, as the case may be. High expectations produce higher performance, regardless of the certificate held. It's ironic that within political borders where an IR is most needed for airspace access, it's harder to get, maintain and use. The message is obviously "keep out" and it's good there are people stubborn and motivated enough to play that game in their light aircraft.

Sign in to add your message

Back to Top