Dan wrote:
reading some of the prolific writers here along with discussions going full circle
I can write in between work and chores, but I can’t put together a day or half to go fly.
Peter wrote:
The less people fly, the more time they spend on forums and the more money they spend on avionics
Guilty on the first… it’s a bit a replacement for sitting together at the flying pub… as for the 2nd, I’ve run out of money a long time ago.
hazek wrote:
I’m just pointing out that flying has many forms and that perhaps to the younger people appealing form, the form they see on youtube flown by Americans that fly long cross countries at high altitude to get to places
I don’t think I ever have seen a youtube video like that 
On the other hand, you can fly like that all over Norway, Sweden and Finland if you want (just don’t get too close to Russia ) This is what everyone in Lancairs do, high and fast. It’s more the why I don’t get.
hazek wrote:
What brought me here and what appeals to me is that I would like to hop into my plane on a Fri, fly for 3-4h(preferably less in a faster plane) to south somewhere, have a great weekend and fly back on Sun. And ideally I’d bring my family or friends. That’s the being a pilot dream for me
In more visual terms:
The dream
Reality:
He he
Exaggerated a bit, but not by that much actually. If you want your family and friends to actually enjoy it (more than once), you would need a PC-12 – as a minimum. Preferably also with a buddy grey haired “co pilot” with 30k hours of Boeing experience under the belt to keep mother in law and older aunts relaxed and happy
This is all about cost actually. It’s perfectly doable with PPL, but not without a whole bunch of money that some have, most of us don’t.
I like to stick to reality. Roaming high and fast across the landscape I can do in a Lancair tomorrow if I want (if weather permits ) A Lancair is something most GA pilot can afford. Other things are STOL, aerobatics and so on. To get a bit of everything, there is a whole series of aircraft designed for that, RVs. Non certified stuff isn’t declining anytime soon.
As with everything else, GA is also survival of the fittest. We have to adapt to the reality or die. Winning the lottery and get a PC-12 is a good way of adapting, it’s just not very probable
hazek wrote:
I suspect most younger people who get into it probably share the same vision as me, which was fueled by some of the same content and media. And most of this content comes from the US. And obviously there’s a pretty big disconnect between that and flying in Europe.
Very true.
hazek wrote:
I’m sorry but I really don’t want to fly around for 100€ hamburgers in a light UL, I don’t care as much for the social aspect of being a member of a club. It’s just not why I got into this. What brought me here and what appeals to me is that I would like to hop into my plane on a Fri, fly for 3-4h(preferably less in a faster plane) to south somewhere, have a great weekend and fly back on Sun. And ideally I’d bring my family or friends. That’s the being a pilot dream for me.
Ditto.
When I was younger and single I was able to do some of this, but on serious airplanes like Senecas. Being situated such that going South always means crossing the Alps, you realistically need a FL200 capable airplane with FIKI and quite a bit of reserves. The Seneca II was quite ideal for me then, but my real dream would be a SF50 or a C501. Or even a TBM. But that is way beyond my paygrade…
With a serious 150 kt SEP you can still do a lot, but a lot less than a few years ago, unless you are able to simply shrugg off the costs of outpricing airports. The Alps still is a major obstacle but from ELLX you can go around them to the West and end up in the Provence in this kind of time. Preferrably though IFR and flying high. Or you can explore Germany which has a huge amount of great airfields, most of which are still very accessible from ELLX.
100$ burgers can be fun if there are fly ins or meeting up with others, otherwise however I regard those as totally pointless. Same thing about round trip flights unless it is to take a friend for a quick round.
LeSving wrote:
Exaggerated a bit
Hahahaha actually pretty spot on if you ask me.
LeSving wrote:
most of us don’t.
Exactly. In the end that’s the bottom line why GA in Europe is declining. No time and/or the needed money.
But actually a 200k plane probably already fulfills my dream quite well. I did say family OR friends. But getting something decent for that price is extremely hard, and getting a place for it even harder.
So yeah, it is what is is.
I don’t think I ever have seen a youtube video like that
That’s because the vast majority of YT videos are made to make money. Certainly all those with 4+ figures of followers because the only way to get those numbers if to pump the channel on other social media. Organic subscriber acquisition is very slow – example
If you want your family and friends to actually enjoy it (more than once), you would need a PC-12 – as a minimum. Preferably also with a buddy grey haired “co pilot” with 30k hours of Boeing experience under the belt to keep mother in law and older aunts relaxed and happy
I’ve never met anybody (in aviation or anywhere else) who wants their mother in law etc around 
A fairly common objective is to get your wife to enjoy flying with you. If she does not, your flying life will be limited because even if she doesn’t fly with you she will object to you flying with female passengers, but unfortunately females are not only 50% of the population but also way more than 50% of people who have time for trips (even free trips).
I maintain that the biggest challenge is the decline of the social scene in GA. As I’ve said many times, money is not the problem. Count the expensive cars on the road… but those people (mostly men) want to spend their weekends somewhere with “potential”.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Ditto.
Ditto everything you said.
The kind of youtube channels that inspire me are this one for example: https://www.youtube.com/@Flugabenteuer/videos Although the DA40 is juste a bit too slow for my taste.
Example video:
This is what it’s about for me. Roughly.
LeSving wrote:
If you want your family and friends to actually enjoy it (more than once), you would need a PC-12 – as a minimum.
For a family of 4 with 20 kgs bags each (Pilot included) I found the Piper Seneca II a great and then inexpensive airplane to fly. At the time, a Seneca was about 350 CHF/hr to charter (I missed on the change of buying the only one I could ever have afforded) which pretty much today is the charter price of a 172. With the Seneca II’s capabilities (FIKI, OEI service ceiling of 17000 ft, capable of FL200+ and 160 kt or so) the Alps were not an issue most days, I would fly to Nice or Avignon over the weekend 4 up, the whole trip cost maybe 500 CHF per person.
Today, if you can find a Seneca II or a similar airplane for rent, they are double that at least. Similar capabilities SEP are Cessna 210’s which are almost nowhere to be rented and well north of 250k to buy with an ownership cost of close to 1000 CHF per hour @ 100 hours per year. Ownership cost of a Seneca @100 hrs yearly is at the very least that much too, rather more.
Even my lowly 180 hp Mooney involves a yearly budget of 16k before flying, that being 6k insurance, 10 k annual/maintenance and hangarage. Add to that the cost of fuel with about 8-10k for 100 hrs and you end up with 30-35k p.a which translates into CHF 350 per hour if you manage to fly those or 700 CHF per hour if you do 50 hrs.
Yea, it is survival of the financially fittest.
My “dream airplane” would in fact not be a PC12 but a C501 or a SF50 or possibly a TBM. Or, in the piston world, a Seneca II or a Pressurized Centurion. Clearly that will never happen.
Peter wrote:
As I’ve said many times, money is not the problem.
Say those who have it. For many people, money is THE problem.
Big cars are not a proof of wealth. 99% of those are leased or otherwise financed, otherwise the ludicrous prices would not be possible.
Peter wrote:
A fairly common objective is to get your wife to enjoy flying with you. If she does not, your flying life will be limited because even if she doesn’t fly with you she will object to you flying with female passengers, but unfortunately females are not only 50% of the population but also way more than 50% of people who have time for trips (even free trips).
Either a wife flies herself or enjoys it and you see great trip reports like the terbangs or the larger share of men whose wifes object will either divorce or stop flying. Fact of life. Those who divorce usually lack the cash to fly thereafter, so most will simply give up flying to keep the peace. And “Getting to” is mostly a Pygmalion project. Either they do from the start or they won’t unless you turn up with a SF50 or similar.
Peter wrote:
The less people fly, the more time they spend on forums and the more money they spend on avionics
Ok, I gotta give it to you, that’s the best post on this thread 🥇
🤣🤣🤣
I still think the main problem is money.
To use it when you need it, wherever you need to go, you need at least PC12 or 24 and deep indifference to how much some landing or handling fees are..For me important part of having unspoiled fun is the ability to not to think how much this is going to cost- and indeed the 30eur or so per hour makes no noticeable difference to me to fly my Savannah.
I have a friend who bought a brand new R66 and has accepted the fact that his 1MEUR toy will be almost worthless in 12 years, he also doesn’t need to count cycles or the cost of Jet-1A ,as there is no chance he will use up the cycles and the cost of fuel is negligible .
If I were to rent the beast for 500 per hour , I would be thinking all the things I could do with the money instead.
