gallois wrote:
The last 3 twins I rented Seneca V, Partenavia68TC and Cessna C303 all cost me €700 an hour wet.
The 303 is the same as a Seneca? Wow. Still. 700… I hear that the going rates for a SF50 is about 1200… for 3 times the speed.
gallois wrote:
Then there were fuel costs Avgas 100LL.
Yep. That was and is a real killer.
gallois wrote:
Now I’ve gone to the opposite extreme. From the sublime to the ridiculous. Rotax 912ULS around €25000 new: fuel mogas UL95 and Skydemon, SDVFR and SafeSky.
Methinks different, and surprise surprise, exactly opposite 😅
As far as money is concerned (speaking only about France here), we used to learn at school that France was a developed country. But the trend has shifted in the last 20 years: GDP per capita is now $40k when it’s $70k in the US. And that’s before mandatory levies and the price of gas. France is slowly becoming a third world country.
Add to that the huge differences between Europe and the US, and you can explain a lot of the decline:
For example, just compare how much more it costs to operate a twin in the EU. In the US it’s fairly common. In the EU, if you own a twin, you’re already extremely rich (some would even say you’re deliberately throwing away money).
I agree with survival of the fittest, but if you don’t have a market you eventually disappear as well (noone can afford to design their own aircraft). In general, I find quite worrying the prospect of the long term damage that excessive regulation does to the economy in general, and GA in particular (be it via certification, fuel taxes, and general increase in administrative procedures).
@maxbc I am not a great believer in GDP as the measure of a country’s economy. This is especially the case since I learnt that Russian GDP is really high at the moment despite sanctions etc. The reason behind this is the fact that they are spending huge amounts of Government money on arms and military equipment.
On the other hand it seems that the USA are doing well on high GDP per capita.
French people have really always fight to maintain the status quo so when a Government wants to make any major change to the status quo such as raising the pension age, people take to the streets.
In general I think we put more in store to “quality of life” than we do in being seen as a 1st world country.
There are regulations that I complain about but generally I am happy. I have accepted that the price of flying a twin is more than I can justify to myself nowadays. But it’s not just regulation that has pushed the price up. And in my lifetime we have always looked on Americans as being twice as rich as we are.
You suggest that no one in Europe can afford to design their own aircraft. Well that’s just not true. France have a long history of designing and building planes. The fact that they don’t sell big, internationally doesn’t seem to bother their designers much and both Elixir and Issoire seem to be enjoying a big order book.
IMHO I’m not sure it’s in our psyche to want more than that.
Of course I can’t speak for your part of France. Maybe rubbing shoulders with the billionaires of Monaco there are different ideas of wealth.🙂
Whilst I can see France dropping down the G20 list and maybe even out of the G7 I can’t see us dropping as far as becoming a 3rd world country in my lifetime.
gallois wrote:
You suggest that no one in Europe can afford to design their own aircraft.
I meant as a person, not as a country. If you’re the only one flying, you can’t afford to design an aircraft (you need a market). Indeed Elixir and the like are doing quite well. I think we’re also collectively paying for the lack of investment in manufacturing in the last 30-40 years.
As for France vs the US, I don’t think it’s that bad (after all, I do live here…), but I think there is still untapped potential and a lack of will to accomplish great things – in no place is it more evident than in tech, where we are extremely dependent on Americans.
(And I recently learnt that the average French now emits 7% less CO2 than the average person on Earth, while being 7x richer !)
I know a handful of people who have designed their own plane and flown the result. I think every one of the popular homebuilts was designed by an individual, mostly as a hobby activity unsupported by any business. Here’s one designed and built by a guy in his early 20s, after building and flying a Vari-Eze as a teenager. Only one was ever built but it’s still flying almost 40 years since he first flew it.
I think.Henri Nicollier, Claude Piel, Jean Delmontez were all still designing up to recent times ( I think most are dead now as they would all be in their 90’s) and yet very few even in ga circles have ever heard of them . Well perhaps Delmontez. But Piel designed the Super Emeraude and IIRCthere the Cap 10. Certainly the Cap 10 evolved from the Emeraude. Nicollier designed one of IMO the most beautiful (homebuilts) the quite tiny Menéstral which I used to fly until the Limbach engine cracked and it was easier to sell the aircraft than get a new engine. It was a delight.
IIRC there is still a designer of one offs at DAX. I flew his Joker once. I think @johnh has flown with the guy.
So they are still out there @maxbc, working in their garden sheds or garages.
IIRC there is still a designer of one offs at DAX
Indeed – Luis Peña, one time French aerobatic champion. Talk to anyone who does mountain flying in France and they talk about him like a god. He has built (iirc) six aircraft, and was building his seventh when I flew with him a couple of years back.
But he’s not the only one. My instructor’s hangar at Cuers LFTF is mostly taken up with one-off homebuilts in various stages of construction (not his).
I think maxbc was talking more of designers building from scratch, but I may be wrong.
But yes Luis Peña, I should have remembered his name he’s designed and built some nice planes. The joker was a great cheap homebuilt 2 seater aircraft for aerobatics.
Yes lots of people love to go up for a little local flight, but unless you are single you are quite limited in who you can fly with.
I have never had problem like this. Anyone I invited gladly joined with the only problem of time flexibility in case of possible postponed return (e.g. due to weather). If that’s solvable by CAT then there’s no problem in flying any distance.
