Peter,
It would be very interesting if you could post some of the quotes you have had, Mooney Driver.
For certain reasons I won’t do this just yet but will eventually do it. Let’s just say at the moment I am working on a doable way of getting what I want at a price I can afford and don’t want to say too much about the rest. I had 3 totally different quotes and in the end they all came out about par for the course.
A dual KX155 plane was not any good for IFR in Europe for at least 20 years.
Dual 155 and a separate GPS was fine, until the 8.33 requirement came along. Now, what would you do, replace the 155’s with 165’s and keep going with that older GPS or just go for a 430? 165’s which are 8.33 capable are quite hefty in price. Non-WAAS 430’s are quite cheap these days.
WAAS is not mandatory and never will be.
There is mandiatory and mandiatory. The 430 series can be upgraded for about $ 3k, for now. This possibility however will likely be withdrawn at some stage to “encourage” people to buy the new GTN series. Then you have the choice to upgrade and keep a viable box for years or have an unsupported box in your panel. Also, the non-WAAS 430 has memory limits for the number of stored waypoints which particularly in Germany has caused problems with their high defined SID/STAR’s which lack many waypoints. Finally, if you are based at an airport which in the relatively near future will install a GPS approach with vertical guidance and has no other approach, you may be hard pressed to do something to enable you to fly those.
You don’t need EFIS – that’s pure indulgence.
It is actually cheaper than installing an even second hand 525A system. The install costs I had quoted for the old King system is about 30% higher than the cost for an Aspen, as it has a lot more cabling to do. In fact, I was told by one company they’d happily let me have one of their 525A systems if I paid for the install, but in the end, the Aspen installation was, including the hardware, only about 2k more in summary. Now what would you install in such a case? Also, the Aspens can talk directly to digital autopilots such as the S-Tec 55X and the GNS430 via ARINC, while the analogue systems need couplers and other stuff which all cost money in time and installation.
With todays requirements of 2 axis AP as well as HSI and 8.33 many “IFR” equipped planes face massive upgrades. Add to that the EASA paperwork (which requires considerable time = money from the installers) plus STC’s e.t.c. and you end up quite expensively.
what next
All IFR trainers have been fitted with one Garmin GN430 or 530 (the twins) and a mode S transpnder some years ago which cost maybe 10.000 Euros for each aeroplane.
10 k for a 430/Mode S Upgrade? Where? The hardware alone costs more than that.
For the rest, they have the original stuff installed that Piper made them with 20 or 30 years ago. IFR compliant until ADS-B comes, and that may be solved by hooking up a piece of wire between the GPS and the transponder.
I am already ADS-B compliant with the Trigg TT31 and the GNS430, but I have neither AP nor HSI. And that is what needs to be changed now at considerable cost. It will be nice once it’s done however.
I would put in a 430W and keep one KX radio. The 430W should have an AML STC, so why the EASA paperwork cost? It isn’t unknown for avionics shops to invent paperwork (I was quoted 2k for the TCAS system, but I knew the game that shop was playing) but in this case it should be a few hundred € max.
Installing an autopilot from scratch in an airframe which never had one is always big money. There isn’t a cheap solution to that. Never was and never will be.
I would put in a 430W and keep one KX radio.
The Swiss CAA (being more German than the Germans) require 2 8.33kHz radios. I am so glad I dodged that bullet last year — literarily in the last minute. I might have traded my aircraft for a boat… Now I am busy fighting the next assault on me — the Cessna SIDs.
Dual 155 and a separate GPS was fine, until the 8.33 requirement came along. Now, what would you do, replace the 155’s with 165’s and keep going with that older GPS or just go for a 430?
The 165A might have some appeal if it was a drop in replacement (without rewiring). But likely your plane has a 14V system and the 165 is available only in a 28V version – so you’d at least need a switched mode power supply (which I’d try to avoid like the plague, because of the switching noise they usually generate).
Other than that: the installation (wiring) cost will likely come close to 10k (or 20k, if you ask swiss avionics shops). So for me it wouldn’t make sense to save a few k by installing long obsolete avionics (like the 430), or avionics at the end of their product life cycle (430W).
You could install a 430 and then bet on Avidyne eventually releasing the IFD430 – I personally wouldn’t trust them to get around actually finish the product.
Plus, a GTN is really a lot more intuitive to operate, on the 430 (and G1000) I always turn the wrong knob (ok, if you own a 430 you’ll probably get proficient, eventually). Well with the exception of the airway load feature, which I temporarily didn’t find anymore in LDLO (to the amusement of Achim’s crew) – I normally don’t do airways 8-)
This possibility however will likely be withdrawn at some stage to “encourage” people to buy the new GTN series.
The less sinister version would be that they simply run out of stock for replacement parts – I bet lots of its components are long out of production, given that their design is likely 30 years old by now. And Garmin doesn’t seem to suffer any lack of interest in the GTN devices.
I do have a 430 non WAAS and one 155, as well as a KN64 DME (which needs replacing with a KN62A) and a KR87 ADF. What I am missing is the AP and HSI. Due to several reasons I decided for an S-Tec 55x system (they had a special price until today which made it attractive vs a system 30 or 50) and I will solve the HSI problem with an Aspen, which also will provide the 2nd Altimeter I need.
Until 2018 apparently one 8.33 radio is sufficient by which time I might either have installed a 2nd 430 or a 430 WAAS as these boxes now loose value rapidly.
Garmin can´t really afford to drop support for the 430/530 series, even though they already have for certain 530 models. But the 430 is about as popular as the ever lasting kx175 radios were until 8.33 came along… what may happen is they stop offering the upgrade from the 430 to the 430W, in which case they will have to announce this well ahead of time. In which case I would simply update my current box.
But once again one of the major cost drivers are EASA who ask horrendous documentation for these things and therefore force avionic shops to spend days on end drawing up detailed plans of what they have installed as well as some STC´s which exist in the US but are not reckognized in Europe. Add to that certification cost of the appliances plus the fact that the companies providing them have quasi monopolies and you get prices where any other industry would run far and fast in the opposite direction.
If I compare some of the certified $$$$$$$ boxes with e.g. the non certified Dynon range in terms of functionality and price….
But once again one of the major cost drivers are EASA who ask horrendous documentation for these things and therefore force avionic shops to spend days on end drawing up detailed plans of what they have installed as well as some STC´s which exist in the US but are not reckognized in Europe.
The avionics companies charge high amounts but the actual effort is usually very small. Whenever I get my “personal” AFMS and schematic drawings for which I pay 4 digit amounts, it is evident that they are just sloppily customized standard documents they’ve used before. I then have to point out where it is wrong and get it updated. The system layout is rather trivial and always the same with the same standard components. It’s the highly aircraft specific cabling and troubleshooting that takes so much time.
To be honest, I would never open an avionics shop. The prospect of having to figure out 30 year old cabling in the crevices of spam cans is not an attractive one. Customers want fixed prices and they are incredibly hard to calculate.
That’s exactly why the general level of service is so poor, and why a “top UK” EASA145 EASA21 EASA-everything company is capable of doing this (see under Installer Performance). Even their MD was happy to be driving in the wrong screws right in front of me (after I reported the circuit breaker panel was hanging 2cm off the wall) with little interest.
You have to make enough money to live, with the average client who gets five quotes and goes for the cheapest. Quite likely a syndicate where getting agreement on anything but the cheapest job may be tough. Or a flying school which usually runs the fleet right at the bottom. Then somebody willing to pay the right price gets a crap job.
The juicy jobs (like me paying 12k for the TCAS install) don’t come up often enough to keep a business going.
To be honest, I would never open an avionics shop. The prospect of having to figure out 30 year old cabling in the crevices of spam cans is not an attractive one. Customers want fixed prices and they are incredibly hard to calculate.
On my latest aircraft, the one that actually has wiring, it was a complete rats nest under an inaccessible panel. It took seven full Saturdays of work just to tidy up the existing wiring and rewire what was marginal before. The price was $1300 cash, done by one guy in my hangar who was paid by the hour, and the paperwork was a two sentence logbook entry. If I were in EASA land the only difference in my approach would be the lack of a logbook entry, the hell with the legalities. The A&P and I joked about the cost if I’d had to take it to the avionics shop – he once worked there but now has a better job. There is no way I’d want to get involved with a shop like that as either the guy doing the work or the guy paying for it.
If I were in EASA land the only difference in my approach would be the lack of a logbook entry. The A&P and I joked about the cost if I had to take it to the avionics shop – he once worked there but now has a better job.
The hourly rate of avionics shops over here are not unreasonable compared to other businesses. Brand associated car dealerships have a much higher hourly rate even though all they do is replace functional units under direction of the manufacturer or a software program representing the manufacturer. In my last avionics projects, the work was about 40% of the total price, the components 50% (including a nice dealer margin) and the regulator induced cost 10%.
What you didn’t say is whether this guy gave you an invoice for his $25/h rate and that included VAT and he declared it with the authorities. For cash and outside the books, a lot can be done here as well. Even for black money, finding a competent person for $25/h over here (Southern Germany) would be very difficult.
It’s true that the EASA system believes in organizations, not people. Probably more than 70% of aircraft mechanics in Europe do not have a formal qualification as aircraft mechanics but it is completely irrelevant because all you need is a Part 145 organization and one person (or more depending on shop size) with the necessary formal qualification. Everybody can become an aircraft mechanic or avionics “engineer” starting tomorrow. All you need is a Part 145 that takes you.
It’s true that the EASA system believes in organizations, not people
And that along with the concept of ‘black money’ is what drives costs and complexity to a place where logic says they should not be. There is no requirement in the US for any invoice, and labor is not taxed to the customer so no ‘VAT’ or other tax was due from me. Reporting his income for the purposes of income tax is the A&Ps or any individuals business, and for sure the FAA does not regulate business or tax collection, only aviation.
The reason the labor rate was $25/hr is that he wanted to help me, as I would help him if necessary (and will, when the opportunity arises) This is serious fun for adults who love aviation, and an opportunity to use skills learned over a lifetime in a helpful way. We both have good jobs to make our real money.
We did go flying afterward so he could check out the plane 
