boscomantico 30-May-15 21:24 #13
Just look at the VAT tread. I mean really. You break the law retroactively because you exercised the use of a legal way not to pay taxes.
That’s not the case.
I went back and reread the tread to see if I may have misunderstood.
Commander stated
About the Italians I hear that they can also make a big fuss about the aircraft which came through the Danish route. Allthough this was perfectly legal they seem to have taken the point of view that you will have misused this law with the sole purpose of avoiding tax .. And that by itself is now illegal with VAT. I presume this only applies to non danish residents who only used Danmark for their vat system.
Commander11-May-14 21:02#34
@Peter .. A few years ago .. I believe 2008/2009 the european courts decided that all “setups” with the intention to avoid or lower VAT taxes by making use of loopholes in laws wether national or international are deemed “abuse of law” and as such were suddenly considered illegal. This applies for example to the crossborder leases, the italian boat leases .. Etc.
I have seen quite a few cases were the tax authorities strike forcefully. Usually it will never come to a conclusion (so far) but they have shut down most of those setups succesfully. The danish route is also considered a setup for a non danish person or entity. This applies especially to all those aircraft which were only there for a day or so.
I believe this is what the italians als attacked.
Commander12-May-14 05:28#37
@Peter.. I know the danishroute was100% legal. However you can argue that if say a british national and resident bought a plane in the us and had a danish company or person import it through Denmark and kept it there for 1 day and then passes it on to the Brit .. Clearly this route was only used to avoid taxes and this can arguably be considered “abuse of law”.
The ruling of the european courts gave the tax authorities wings and they went after all those setups .. In many cases they came in aggressively and made big threats
It’s just that you make the impression on me (and probably others) that you don’t really enjoy the flying here in Europe much. Then why do you do it?
Others sure enjoy it quite much. And it sure much is a matter of attitude
Obviously there are others who feel these administrative tactics will hinder the joys of flight. As referenced by the statement of Phil below.
PhilTheFlyer10-May-14 21:24#21
My concern is that people who might fancy spreading their wings a bit will be put off by these stories
I enjoy flying; the challenge of making the plane a useful transportation tool with regards to flying. However not with whether I land in a particular country I will be impounded, fined, etc. Or to have to jump through administrative hoops as in, is my IR valid because someone in govt decides they want to shake you down.
As with all things there is a tipping point when the Aggravation factor (Govt regulation, inconvenience, costs) vs Satisfaction factor (joy of flight) becomes too great, then Adios.
At my home field, there were a number of US pilots who have flown here who would not think of owning a plane here. They all tried talking me out of it. Actually made bets with me I would be back within the year. Happy to report they lost and PAID up.
However every time I turn around I see more and more BS regulation it difficult to stay rosy especially when you think you covered all your bases.
I DO enjoy it, but I am still critical about it and, yes, there’s too many regulations and you have to be very passionate about flying to do it for a long time.
Examples:
- It took me one week to plan the flight to Greece and to sort out all the PPRs, parking permissions and opening hours. Milos Airport is open from 15:15-16:20 LT on Mondays.
- Because of the G7 summit (a 2 day meeting that costs € 360 million) practically all GA will be shut down in half of Bavaria for almost two days. No way to land at my homefield with a Y FPL (only IFR flights are allowed in the restricted area and if I cancel IFR two miles from the field i am VFR).
- I have to prove every 4 years (or was it wo, forgot?) that I am still able to speak English.
- I want to depart before the airport opens at 9 am LT? I pay a PPR fee of € 25, I want to land after it has closed (7 pm) – i pay another € 25. I come from a EU country that’s not in Schengen? I cannot come after 7 pm, because the police will only come to the airfield during opening hours.
- You want to fly to Munich? Forget it. 4 airfields around the city, all closed for GA. Mine is 70 km from my home (it’s okay for me, because i can get there in 30-45 minutes, depending on traffic, probably more for any airport in NYC if you live in Manhattan.
- On G-reg I have to do the 50 h inspection every 6 months, regardless of flown hours
- AVGAS is € 2.40 although oil is cheaper than ever
And that’s only a small selection. Of course I love it, and as long as i healthy (and wealthy …) i will fly. That does not mean we cannot be critical about it.
PS: I would love to Italy more often, but the way i was treated on some italian airports as a paying customer makes it really hard to look forward to the next flight. While enthusiasts like you (bosco) who speak italian fluently might enjoy this, it’s really not for everyone.
The vast majority of US (N registered) aircraft owners would have no idea what you you’re talking about if you suggested they needed to keep a written record of aircraft movements and flight time. Tach time is good enough because almost all Part 91 maintenance is done on condition, not time. The exception is aircraft with no recording device, i.e. non-electrical aircraft, for which you keep an aircraft log.
(I’m sitting at Düsseldorf airport with 30 mintutes free wifi and nothing to do except write about minutiae 
)
It is worth pointing out that there are two entirely separate issues here.
One is whether EU Import VAT has been paid, from the point of view of a Customs inspector in another country. This is the traditional concern of aircraft owners, flying (mostly) N-regs to (mostly) France, Germany, or Italy. It has always been easy to just fly a plane from the USA (well, not a C150 ) via Greenland, Iceland, etc and not pay the import VAT. (There is no import duty on aircraft). The Danish zero-VAT route gave you a 100% valid C88 (or equivalent – I never did it myself) and that is good enough for this purpose.
Another is whether EU Import VAT has been paid, from the point of view of the owner’s domestic tax authorities. This is rarely an issue but all civilised countries have laws which attempt to “punch through” arrangements which reduce or avoid tax but have no commercial basis. Obviously there is a limit to how far they can go because e.g. you could give all your savings to a non-employed wife and use up her tax allowances to get tax free interest, and that has to be allowed, but it is an obvious tax avoidance move. Achim’s report on Germany (linked to earlier) suggests that the German tax people have been going after German citizens who used the Danish route.
European courts have no national jurisdiction on personal tax avoidance, or have they?
What would US aircraft owners do if they wanted to fly outside the US, or sell export aircraft out of the US? ICAO mandates aircraft journey log books, right?
ICAO mandates nothing. They recommend. CAAs have the final say on mandates, but only once they gain jursidiction over the aircraft, which would be when the aircraft’s registration is transferred to them.
So to answer your question: if they fly internationally, they don’t have to do anything. If they change registry, well, then at that time the operator would start keeping a journey log.
ICAO mandates nothing. They recommend.
Yes, of course. But I’m sure you understood what I meant. ;-)
Airborne, I have the aircraft maintenance logs and pilots log. Why do you need a an aircraft log? I can understand it if you have a flying club or multiple owners.
Anyone have the answer to this?
2. I moved to Europe and got an satisfaction of VAT compliance from the Customs people here in Hungary. I carry that document which was offically translated to English by the Govt Translation office and sealed stating all VAT was satisfied. I was told that in order for the VAT satisfaction to remain valid I had to wait 1 year before I could sell the plane. It seems to me that the meaning behind that is, that if I do sell the document is transferable to the new owner. Am I right?
Peter after having gotten divorced I would rather pay the tax guy twice over than to put all my money into my wife’s (ex) pocket. More women have climbed the economic ladder via divorce than any other type of vocation. Well I can think of one other but since we are all gentlemen here, I wont expound on it.
Not a complaint just an observation. At least as it relates to NY divorce law.
