Thought about starting a new thread, but I guess this is on topic here, so: what about repaired planes? I understand that each repair should be “up to snuff” or the plane will not be considered airworthy otherwise. There is a C172 for sale not too far away from me. It did have a wing strike repaired, it has all the paperwork, ADs, SBs, SIDs done, is under CAMO and maintained by a Part145 shop. But I’ve been told by local mechanics to stay away from it (they already looked for it for someone else). So who is talking smack?
There is a price for everything but you can’t rely on the annual process to guarantee everything is fine. It might be, it might not. Buying an accident damaged aircraft is fine so long as you can have it properly pre-buyed by an good independent operator. Be aware though that to sell such a plane you will always be heavily negotiated by future buyers so make sure you get it at a good price.
tmo wrote:
Thought about starting a new thread, but I guess this is on topic here, so: what about repaired planes?
You have to look at the individual case. There are often multiple ways to repair the same damage, all of which are airworthy but some of which are quicker to perform and less attractive than the original construction. So-called ‘scab patches’ that quickly repair a damaged aluminum structure justifiably reduce value, even when performed according to FAA guidelines or a specifically approved repair scheme. On the other hand an aluminum or tube & rag aircraft that has been through a comprehensive structural rebuild, 100% to original specs and completely corrosion controlled and epoxy primed might be better than new.
If you start looking at old tail wheel aircraft, with many models it’ll be relatively rare to find one that hasn’t been damaged and repaired in some fashion. Each one is individual situation, and that’s normal and expected.
tmo wrote:
what about repaired planes? I understand that each repair should be “up to snuff” or the plane will not be considered airworthy otherwise
Some issues with that.
First of all, damage history is psychologically challenging when selling a plane. There will be quite a few folks who will just walk away, which is often simply common sense but similarly often not justified. But it will be a thing hanging over the airframe when you eventually want to sell it.
Secondly, there is damage and there is damage. The typical damage you keep reading about are gear up landings. Most of the time they don’t really do much damage to the airframe but obviously ruin prop and engine. The engine will have to be opened and either checked or completely redone, props normally will be replaced with a new one. Furthermore some sheet metal work will likely be required and a few antennas replaced. The main question is: What is standing in front of you.
If it has a new or zeroed engine: The mishap is of no further consequence to it. Neither to the prop, which by nature of the thing will be new. So the thing to look at is the belly and things like flaps and control sufraces if they got damaged at all.
Quite another issue can be if there was major damage on the wing, empennage or fusellage. All in all, this requires expert advice and analysis. It is well possible that an airframe like that is perfectly safe, while others are not. I have seen Jodels repaired to a standard of better than before (whole wings rebuilt from scratch in one instance) and I have seen a PA28 which had a “minor” hangar rash and thereafter never flew straight again until it got sorted out by someone who really knew.
Another thing is: how long ago was that damage. A gear up repaired 20 years and 2 engines and props ago is unlikely to bring surprises. A freshly repaired airframe has more question marks over it.
Clearly, with the way most European CAA’s work and will inspect such repairs, I would consider repairs done by known repair companies and accepted by the CAA safe enough. But as history shows sometimes even big guys like Boeing screw up.
Where I am wary about particularly in the scope of this thread is so called “project” airplanes. These are NOT for newbies, they are mostly also not for folks who are not themselfs capable of judging airframes like that. I know of some project airframes which became wonderfully restored and fly very well today, I also know of folks who bought a “bargain” hangar queen and never got it in the air again.
So my answer would be as with any airframe: with due diligence, if the pre-buy and the founded expert opinion give you a thumbs up, then yes if the price is right. If not, there are quite some choices out there.
I would be wary of anything involving a prop strike, because there is an obvious incentive to do these on the cheap, and Europe is full of really crap engine shops.
When I had my prop strike in 2002, back then a CAA LAME had the authority to avoid a shock load inspection if the propeller never actually stopped rotating. Yeah – anybody with an engineering education will have hairs rising but this then UK CAA approved and Lycoming approved procedure was offered to me. It would have involved cutting about 2cm off the end of each of the three prop blades. Yeah, you can read this now and take the p1ss, but there have been many people who did go for that option. And I know of others. Much more recently a prop was pretty comprehensively destroyed but to the best of my knowledge the engine was not even looked at (an uncertified aircraft so ADs and SBs can be legally ignored, but the engine was a standard Lyco). I chose a new prop and a shock load done engine because since the plane was new and had 1 (one) hour on it, the insurance paid for all-new stuff with no betterment reduction. 20k…
But the company which did that job turned out to be a bunch of crooks. At one point they got busted by the FAA (here in the UK!) for assembling propellers out of scrapped parts and selling them with “fresh paperwork”. They were FAA 145 & JAA 145. The FAA did an AD on the props… I am OK with this because in 2008 my engine was all done fresh by a top US shop, NDT and all. They found some stuff strongly suggesting that the 2002 job was done with a blind eye to a load of corrosion, which is another story: in 2001/2002 Socata sold a load of TB20s and 21s with engines which were corroded as a result of improper shelf storage (too long, etc). The original Socata logbooks contained engine installation dates which were just too good. I did some digging, got engine shipping (to Socata) dates from Lyco, and found some interesting stuff……
So due diligence can be tough. You have to do a good prebuy, with a type-experienced engineer, and trust very little. Logbooks especially are ripe for forgery – in both directions i.e. a plane with loads of hours wants to have the hours reduced, a plane which sat around wants regular flights created. We could have another thread on how to best do a prebuy check.
Peter wrote:
Logbooks especially are ripe for forgery
Given that the thread is on inexpensive aircraft, not corporate owned biz-jets and the like, it might be worth saying that (by my observation) 50% of repairs found on aircraft have no logbook entry whatsoever! I am familiar with a show winning classic aircraft 
that has had its serialized wings replaced and other obvious ground loop damage repaired without any record over seven decades. The original flight log does show 500 hours in its first 6 months of existence, so there no question what it was doing: intense primary flight training (on US GI Bill money). The aluminum lower engine cowling was once repaired by an absolute artist, probably gas welded, but the polished exterior surface shows nothing. I’d love to know the story on that, but its lost to the sands of time… no logbook entry. The whole plane was later in a ‘million’ pieces, during the mid-late 90s, so at this point it makes no practical difference.
Amazing that a $2000 then, $25,000 now aircraft has had so much labor and attention poured on it over so many years. Its not unusual with old planes. The main thing now is just to look very carefully before buying or you could end up re-doing a bunch of poorly done work. That’s true for any plane.
Thanks everyone. So it, predictably, always comes down to a good pre-buy inspection and knowing what one is buying.
What are your thoughts on getting a good physical pre-buy on a plane based far away? It has to check out on paper (logbooks, etc), that’s obvious, but if it does, what then? Convincing / finding a local mechanic to make the trip with me, preferably the one that will be working on the plane? Finding someone local to the plane to do the inspection? How do I know he’s really on my side, and not a beer buddy of the seller? An escrow account and bringing the plane in for an inspection? Meeting somewhere halfway? We’re talking 30k eur planes, not 200k, mind you, so the ferry might very well be a noticeable part of the budget (think Ireland to Poland, as an extreme). What if the plane doesn’t check out? A clause in the purchase agreement saying any work deemed necessary by the incoming CAMO is deducted from the money in escrow? Someone might, in theory, end up giving me a plane for literally next to nothing. I’m not sure I’d agree to something like that if I was the seller, because how do I know the CAMO is not too far on the buyer’s side?
Or do I find someone from EuroGA that’s local and trust them? ;-)
tmo wrote:
What are your thoughts on getting a good physical pre-buy on a plane based far away?
I think your best bet is to take along the smartest mechanic you can convince to go with you… This is where getting ‘screwed in’ to your local scene is helpful, and making friends who can help you both before and after the purchase. Enthusiasm, personal involvement and making friends goes a long way to making the difficult a lot easier, but that takes time that some people just don’t have. Something to think about.
You may miss something regardless. Another nice low hour ‘plane with which I’m familiar’ had a nose gear collapse and prop strike, with nothing noted in the logbooks except an upgrade to a higher performance propeller installation (a good cover up!) and a nicely ‘repainted’ fiberglass lower cowling. If you really look you can see the fiberglass repair on the inside of the cowling but nobody spotted it during the pre-buy. There’s still a little inconsequential dent on the belly just behind the firewall, which is what got me started on figuring it out – years later. I eventually talked to a guy who was involved and got the story. All the actual work was done properly, although I suspect the personnel involved had somewhat unusual qualifications.
Welcome to the world of 30K aircraft
Pay to take your own mechanic with you. The problem with aircraft is not the cost of the pre buy vs purchase price it is cost of prebuy versus cost of fixing problems discovered later.
The full pre-buy checklist includes the following:
0. read and understand this: http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Aircraft-Ownership/Tips-on-Buying-Used-Aircraft
1. complete reading of the engine and airframe logbooks (if there are none, or some are missing do not buy)
2. contact the FBO that has done the most or most recent annual on the plane (if the owner won’t provide that info, dont buy)
3. pay the small fee to get the FAA records on the aircraft
4. do an inspection with a specialist mechanic with experience doing pre-buy inspections
5. be objective about wear and tear, condition, cost to restore, history, and the owner (do not fall in love with the plane)
6. use a sales contract if you are not using a broker from a place like AOPA
7. do not give anyone cash, open an escrow account and put the money into it with instruction not to pay out until authorized by you.
Thanks Silvaire and USFlyer.
For Europe I would think that forged logs or crappy repairs should be pretty rare. Sure there can be such stuff as Peter keeps telling us, but at least here in Switzerland I have not ever come across something like that, I’d guess Germany and Austria neither. Fact is, the controls exercised by the CAA about such things are way too strict. And it is interesting to see how well they do work together, that implies a lot of trust between the CAA inspectors and the actual people who do the work.
Also the scene is much smaller, therefore it would be quite difficult to hide damage.
Pre-Buy, pretty much what US Flyer sais with a bit of local adujstment. The AOPA Resource is certainly a good starting point. Moreover, there is nothing better than a competent mechanic who is 100% on your side and will go there and see the plane, look at the logs and work the pre-buy, which in most cases is pretty close to a 100 hrs inspection anyhow. Yes, by all means listen to the guy, be objective, but also be realistic. A 50 year old plane can be in very good shape but it isn’t new. There will be odds and ends you might want to straighten up, worn plastic to replace or similar things, but they don’t have to be showstoppers. The real items to look for are those which are a) safety relevant of course and b) potential high cost items. If an inspector running a pre-buy will come up with stuff like total revision of the landing gear needed, possible total revision of the engine within the next 200 hrs or so, possible fuel leak (Mooney buyers beware), stuff which will set you back 10-20k if they materialize, that is when you need to consider very carefully. Either these things get addressed or the price should reflect them.
There is not much wrong buying a plane with run out engine and prop as long as it is part of the plan to replace/overhaul them. These are known quantities, as opposed to avionic upgrades which are mostly not. For beginner/owners I’d recommend at least a potential of 500 hrs on engine and prop to be able to get flying and not wait for months until the engine is back from the shop.
Cash works different here. Mostly, nobody carries banknotes around. There will be a contract to buy and money will go via a bank transfer. I’ve even heard of planes being bought over credit card, which is a nice guarantee for the buyer but not so great for the seller who has to pay the percentage.
