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Brexit and general aviation, UK leaving EASA? (merged)

Hopefully nothing to do with wars, but it is as the EU did with Ireland, when they rejected Europe in their first referendum, so Brussels insisted on a second one while doing all the PR to ensure the nation came to its senses. Try that one after a General Election when you don’t get the result you wanted, unless you run some despotic African state.

Has happened several times again, up to the point where the EU in no uncertain terms told Greece that if they had the balls to run a referendum, they would stop their finances and throw them in the gutter. THAT was one pivotal moment for me, never having been pro EU, but this one gave the last bit of proof necessary that Democracy is as existent in the EU as it was in several other countries or outfit who deemed fit to write “Democratic” into their countries name. The message was very clear:
- We don’t want the people to have their say because we have already decided for them
- We don’t want the people to determine their fate because it won’t fit into our world
Therefore, democracy is something which only hinders us to walk the way to salvation.

As for general elections: in recent times this happened or is about to happen again and again. Check out Bulgaria, where a coalition of election loosers ousted the winners, check out Germany where the same thing can still happen and in fact has already happened to an extent with the coalition contract and several others, where “democratically” elected parliaments turned the opposite of what the voters said. That is why my own conclusion is clear: Democracy is by no means assured by free elections whereafter all power goes to a government for 4 years in which the people can say exactly nothing. Democracy is NOT afraid of their own people, Democracy will ACCEPT the decision of the people at all times and will actively ask for it.

EASA was established as a result of ‘The European Dream’ not because it could contribute to the development or safety of aviation

EASA was the logical next step to JAA and it was in general a good idea. To get a common European licensing, where you’d do one license and fly all over Europe, to get a common European air law, where it did not matter if you did your exams in Germany, France, Britain or Italy, a common medical, common airworthines rules. It sounded great, inviting. Finally there would be a common accord on how to do things, finally fanatics in some by nature restrictive, policing and pedantic countries would be brought to justice and we’d get a workable rulemaking for everyone.

Unfortunately what happened next was the very opposite. The Tigers came at Night and their Voices were soft as Thunder indeed! Instead of a white sheet of paper on which a new and competitive rulemaking was done in order to turn over a new leaf in European aviation, we got the sum of all fears of the participating countries, the sum of the most restrictive rulemaking, the sum of all bureaucrats, some of which joined EASA due to the fact that their own CAA was no longer there. We got a maximum bureaucratic, oppressive and contraproductive collection of rulemaking and implementation. The sum of everything we did not like about our former CAAs.

It has taken time, but the wall starts to fall. France, one of the major players in the aviation industry, has gone their own way with their national IR, we see EASA crumble on a subject they never wanted even to think of: an accessible and realistically reachable IR. Clearly, at the same time, the forces of evil are trying other ways to neutralize this, with new TBO requirements, new Avionic requirements and so on, but I think the dam is broken. Other countries will fall away from Koeln and tell them to stick their rules up their backsides. Several CAAs have openly told EASA they can no longer stand behind their rulemaking and want it changed. Add to that the efforts of AOPA and IAOPA as well as others, I am very carefully optimistic that given time we WILL see improvements.

whatnext

But there will be no splitting-up between Germany and France. Never. We started this EU thing together and we will be the last ones to hold it together

You are probably right there, particularly for the reasons you state. France however at the moment is anything but stable, with Mr Hollande’s ideas of socialist grandeur and not really too cordial with Germany, even though socialist ideas are popping up there as well and in frightening proportions. The scenario you give may well be one of several possibilities. One question in my mind is however how would the power blocks react to a major player leaving the EU? Would there be copycats? I reckon there would be. Would we possibly see a bunch of other countries sick and tired of the current Brussels regime’s oppression do the same and try to form an alliance with the UK if it left?

The public opinion in many countries in the EU would make a national referendum on yes or no to the EU a very close call, not only in the UK but also in other places. Would we see a secessionist movement? And if so, what will the consequences be?

I would fully expect the rump EU to take harsh economic sanctions against any seceding memberstate, if not even attempt to keep them in the Union by force. With the UK that might prove difficult seeing as the UK still is a nuclear power whereas but for France the EU is not, but what about other states? Will the EU let them go peacefully? I rather doubt that.

If the EU wants to stop countries from leaving, they would need to reform themselfs into a democratic and progressive organisation without a dominant powergroup of countries factually running all the others. This however I fail to see happening. So we might once again see conflict in Europe, be it economical or otherwise. The old wounds are still there and it won’t take too much to rip them widely open.

LSZH, Switzerland

Regardless of who stays in or out I have to say I am more optimistic that EASA will gradually become more sensible. It was a new body that has clearly taken some time to adjust. Plenty of national CAAs were hopeless and seem to be somewhat romanticised now.

Keeping countries in the EU by military force? Not a chance. Economic force of course.

And I am not sure the Swiss model could work in a larger more complex country. As wonderful as Switzerland is, it is certainly “unique” in its approach to many things including democracy.

EGTK Oxford

I once heard that the Swiss have regular referendums. ie. many per year.

That they vote on many things, and even pass tax increases in referendums.

Is that true? If so, it’s a wonderful example of democracy. I wish the EU were more like that.

I happen to agree with JasonC that in time EASA will be a force for good.

I even happen to think that the EU is a force for good.

The biggest problem for the EU is that it is determined to move ahead with further integration at its own fast pace, and as a result it’s ahead of its own people.

Political change should be lead by the people, not the institutions. At best they should be moving at the same speed. But the EU shouldn’t be moving faster than its people.

EIWT Weston

I think UK leaving EU would encourage other countries to do the same, it doesn`t matter who exits first. For me living in Germany and Europe was better in the pre EU era than now, each country was sovereign whith it`s own currency and regulations. Germany has an unemployment rate of more than 5 Millions (officially 3 Mio.), has many poor people young and old and is confronted with a flood of immigrants from Rumania, Bulgaria and other parts of the world. Germans who not agree with EU policy are abused as racists.
Whats the worth of a LAPL ? Pilots with their old ICAO-PPL are limited with this paper if they do not upgrade and pay some extra money for it.
8,33 is not necessary, intelligent planning of frequencies would surplus 5000 USD for an KX 165A. And a second 8,33 in the near future ?
Does Part M and other maintenance stuff made airplanes safer ?
I can imagine EASA wants to change our engines every 12 years like fuel pumps or belts.
Mode S for what ? For switching Mode S off when flying VFR near Amsterdam ?
We are not allowed to land on a french only airfield without language proficiancy entry in the PPL, same for other EU countries.
What we need is no EASA, we need a referendum in Germany urgent as well as in UK, if not it is pseudo democratic!

Berlin, Germany

What we need is no EASA, we need a referendum in Germany urgent as well as in UK, if not it is pseudo democratic!

You remember that anti-Euro/anti-EU party in our last election a few weeks ago? They didn’t even get the necessary five percent for a single seat in parliament…

8,33…

This comes from Eurocontrol and not EU or EASA. Eurocontrol is not an agency of the EU and even if the UK (or Germany) would leave the EU they would probably stay with Eurocontrol

The same applies to mode S (which I, as a Professional airspace user who is not there for fun but for bread and butter would have made mandatory for everbody many years ago).

EDDS - Stuttgart

The same applies to mode S (which I, as a Professional airspace user who is not there for fun but for bread and butter would have made mandatory for everbody many years ago).

Mode C would be a good start and better than the status quo.

EGTK Oxford

I too would have made Mode C mandatory. It’s a good quid pro quo for sharing the airspace with people who, if they don’t want to collide with you, can spend £10k+ on TCAS. Might save “your” life too, if the TCAS owner avoids a collision…

Forget Mode S for light GA – most ATC units can’t see the data anyway, and southern Europe has ignored Mode S pretty well comprehensively. All that Mode S has achieved is a good supply of used Mode C transponders on US Ebay. 8.33 is about to do the same, with KX radios…

Last Edited by Peter at 04 Dec 15:24
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The same applies to mode S (which I, as a Professional airspace user who is not there for fun but for bread and butter would have made mandatory for everbody many years ago).

Surely it’s already mandatory for all jets and turboprop aircraft and has been for some time?

Darley Moor, Gamston (UK)

I once heard that the Swiss have regular referendums. ie. many per year.
bq. That they vote on many things, and even pass tax increases in referendums.
bq. Is that true? If so, it’s a wonderful example of democracy. I wish the EU were more like that.

Yeah, sometimes it’s good and sometimes it’s not. Croatia had a referendum few days ago where conservative majority decided to change constitution in order to limit some rights to minority. And they are preparing another referendum, again targeted to limit some other rights to some other minority.

The referendums from early 1990’s in this region ended with wars, so don’t jump easy on referendum

Last Edited by Emir at 04 Dec 15:51
LDZA LDVA, Croatia

(Hopefully this passes the test of being non-political ;)

In the case where Britain did exit the EU, many things would stay the same. I suspect that the UK would remain in EASA and continue to adopt/enforce EASA rules/licences etc. Some non-EU countries (Channel Islands) already operate this way. Perhaps we might be more supportive of N-Reg/perhaps not. With the many recent changes/improvements driven by the UK CAA, I don’t see a widely different outcome. Some might expect EASA licences to disappear in favour of UK only ones, but I for one don’t particularly want to change my licence and learn another set of rules yet again.

As pointed out in another thread, there may need to be Customs (in addition to Immigration/passport checks) at Ports of Entry when entering or departing the EU. That might restrict which airports we could access (on both sides of the channel). Some of those restrictions might be coming in any case if Schengen border controls are tightened. I’m unclear on how restrictive that might become.

But in the end, would anything much differ for private aviation?

EGBJ, United Kingdom
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