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What has EASA actually done for us?

Peter wrote:

No idea where you get that from… quote the opposite I would say. We would all like a US-like Exp category, VFR and IFR, Euro-wide…

Maybe not from you, but from certain other German EASA proponents with the fundamental belief that anything non-certified is fundamentally a death trap

That mindset is not limited to Germany… and even there it could be less general than it might seem. The tinkerers generally keep a low profile

Last Edited by at 17 Jul 11:55
EBZH Kiewit, Belgium

LeSving wrote:

But as Peter and others points out again and again, to fly across Europe with anything that remotely resembles a pleasant experience, requires IFR rating due to airspace mess and general ignorance from ATC. EASA has no jurisdiction over airspaces, so the largest obstacle for cross country (or inter country or whatever) is not part of this “unification”. Seriously, when IFR rating is required (requiring a rating costing 10-20k + an IFR machine at 150k minimum, and this is on top of the PPL itself at 10+k), then all other cross border “obstacles” becomes just silly little things, not even worth mentioning.

@Peter should speak for himself, but I do not think that he has ever written anything as categorical as that. Actually there is ample proof on this forum (by @vieke, @dublinpilot, @Patrick, @Niner_Mike and many others) that it is perfectly feasible, and enjoyable, to fly VFR across Europe all the way to the border of Asia and even into Africa.

And that is just a small sample.

The fact is that for those of us who do have an IR, life without an IR is hard to imagine. Those of us who have been flying for a while, fly a lot and have an IR prefer flying IFR because flight planning, and the operation of the flight, are much easier. I for one was very frustrated not to be able to fly IFR in Europe for a while after having come back from the US with an IR, and the result was that I flew very little for a few years.

LeSving wrote:

I mean, SERA and part NCO, are not even in effect many places, and those parts will not change airspace structures, nor will they educate ignorant ATC.

Ignorant ATC? That’s a pretty hard accusation. Ignorant about what?

Where is SERA not in effect?

The deadline for EASA OPS is August 27th or thereabout. As far as I understand Part-NCO has entered into effect only in GB, but it was their choice not to wait for the deadline.

LeSving wrote:

When I got my PPL in 1992, the rules were simple. I could fly an aircraft, MTOW 7500 kg

I believe it is 5700 kg. You are probably referring to the 7,5 T limit for the old Norwegian driver’s license which has now been brought in line with the rest of Europe to 3500 kg.

LeSving wrote:

But I have seen certified light private GA disappearing over the last 20-30 years, and this is only accelerating.

That cannot be due to EASA. IIRC JAR came about a couple of years after I got my license in 1995, and before that each country was making their own regulations based on ICAO. There are probably lots of other factors that constitute the root cause, and I still see thriving flying clubs in France with lots of fresh pilots with big plans half way listening to old geezers talking about how much better things used to be, just like when I first got my license.

I think we sometimes should ask what we can do for EASA…

Last Edited by at 17 Jul 13:33
LFPT, LFPN

That mindset is not limited to Germany… and even there it could be less general than it might seem. The tinkerers generally keep a low profile

Maybe you are referring to people on another forum… there are many other forums on the internet and all of them (in Europe) are more aggressive than EuroGA. That in turn is what causes some of the issues which sometimes pop up here; some people expect to be able to do here what they do elsewhere with impunity.

There is a general level of tribal behaviour in European GA, so the gliders don’t talk to the powered, the ultralights don’t talk to the certifieds, etc, etc. But other than that I don’t think anybody cares whether somebody else flies in what they think is a death trap or whatever.

Another thing one gets in Europe is the " I am allright Jack! " attitude, with farm strip flyers gloating (especially on certain UK sites) that they no longer have to pay the £20 landing fee at a certain GA airfield. This meets with the predictable response that if everybody did that, GA would collapse because not everybody wants to fly between farm strips (especially as many of them are intensely private, for legality reasons). We are all in the same boat…

There are probably lots of other factors that constitute the root cause

There are, and IMHO most of them are traceable back to business protection by (a) the flight training industry and (b) the maintenance industry (and ex employees thereof who move to the regulators). For example if one could have freelance PPL training, the costs would plummet and the extra convenience to the customers would be immeasurable. Guess where you can do this?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

For example if one could have freelance PPL training, the costs would plummet and the extra convenience to the customers would be immeasurable. Guess where you can do this?

In the same place where the flight training industry is most successful. A rising tide floats all boats.

A rising tide floats all boats.

PRECISELY. And those who operate off the airfield scene got their PPLs, guess where? At airfields! Well, unless they did it c. 30 years ago.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Aviathor wrote:

but I do not think that he has ever written anything as categorical as that.

Maybe not, but it was more to make a point that nothing EASA has done makes it easier to fly a light aircraft across Europe. Peter is flying IFR in an N-reg, and when that is easier than flying a euro-reg VFR, then something is very wrong (or it has nothing to do with EASA at all)

Aviathor wrote:

Where is SERA not in effect?

The deadline for EASA OPS is August 27th or thereabout.

SERA and NCO is not effective everywhere. SERA is, but it is different everywhere anyway, and NCO is only in effect in Norway of all places, and has been so for over a year. Again, the point is, it is irrelevant for travelling across Europe. The obstacles are not the regs, but airspace.

Aviathor wrote:

I believe it is 5700 kg

Yes, maybe, I have to look in my old books. When the new driving licenses came, I remembered to renew my license in time, so I can drive 7.5 tons

Aviathor wrote:

I think we sometimes should ask what we can do for EASA…

That’s a joke right? EASA is a bureaucracy. Regarding GA it is made by and for people in central Europe. It probably works still in denser part of Europe where the population density is high enough to keep maintenance organisations and PPL schools alive. At lower density places, it is impossible for anyone to have those things going. There are instructors most places, but they cannot instruct because they have no affiliation to a school. The same for maintenance. Lots of people who could work part time, free lancing by fixing light GA, but it’s impossible today. It’s impossible, because those people who could, does not find it worth doing with the current regime. Not even local helicopter companies, that are perfectly capable of fixing light fix wing GA, find it even remotely interesting. Way too much hassle for way too little, they have to concentrate on their business, and who can blame them? My “inspector” for my homebilts is the chief technical officer at the local helicopter company, and this is what he tells me (inspecting homebuilts he does in his spare time, for his own amusement, and he charges nothing). We have reached a point where private light GA is spiraling down and will disappear. It starts in the periphery, because that’s where this organisation nonsense has largest devastating effect. It will not stop here. Layer upon layer will be peeled off, like an onion, and will be replaced by experimentals and microlight (and helicopters).

At ENVA it used to be several dozens of light private GA airplanes. Today there are the 6 airplanes of the club (3 C-172, 2 ANNEX II (Safari and Cub) and one microlight). In Addition there are 2 Lancairs, One RV-8, one Yak, one AA-5, one Seabee and 4-5 microlights + 3 Cessnas of which only one is in working condition. That’s it (in addition to the helicopter company with a couple of dozen helicopters stationed here and other places). At the closest microlight strip, a tiny one, only 10 minutes flight from here, there are 14 microlights. At the next field, 20 minutes flight from here, and equally tiny, there are 9 microlights. At the closest strip, only 5 minutes flight, there are half a dozen microlights, and a couple of helicopters an one Cherokee (which I haven’s seen for ages, so I doubt it’s still there). At another field just 20 minutes flight south there are two experimentals (one RV-6 and one amphibious thing), one motorglider and 1 or 2 microlights. At ENOL, also 20 minutes flight, there are 4-5 microlights, one ancient Cherokee, a motorglider and a Carbon Cub. At ENOP, about 45 min flight, there are 1 1/2 dozen microlights at least, and one twin Baron (or something), 1/2 dozen gliders and a Cessna 206 + a couple of King Airs that hardly see the light of day. There are also helicopters here and there on private heli landing spots as well as some even tinier private microlight strips for personal use only. A rough count, I find the situation to be 8 EASA certified light GA (fixed wing) left in the Trondheim area (roughly speaking). 8 of at least a total of 100 GA aircraft. This is the situation everywhere here. 25 years ago the situation was opposite, about 70-100 certified light GA fixed wing (plus or take commercial GA helicopters).

My club is still going strong, even though people are converting to microlights. That is not the problem. A well driven club will survive in any larger city. The problem is private light certified GA (EASA fixed wing owned by private individuals). It has practically disappeared in the last 25 years. We can of course discuss what the root cause is, but we are discussing EASA, and EASA has made it disappear more, much more than what is necessary. Most pilots would rather have more capable airplanes than less capable airplanes. They would rather have a Cirrus or a Diamond than a WT-9 Dynamic microlight. But when practical circumstances and money dictates a situation where the only viable options are; microlight, experimental, helicopter – or nothing, then people chose something over nothing.

Last Edited by LeSving at 17 Jul 18:53

It is easy to see why microlights will be very popular in a relatively self contained flying community, from which it is a long way to go anywhere, or it doesn’t happen for cultural (e.g. language) reasons, or people do mostly short trips (again, for cultural reasons, or due to rapidly changing wx).

IFR is simpler than VFR, sure, which is why I use IFR for longer trips. Eurocontrol IFR (as distinct from UK IFR in Class G which is VFR OCAS in all respects) makes CAS irrelevant. The N-reg aspect is not relevant to flying; it is relevant to maintenance options, and is good for owners who are proactive on maintenance.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

LeSving wrote:

Peter is flying IFR in an N-reg, and when that is easier than flying a euro-reg VFR, then something is very wrong (or it has nothing to do with EASA at all)

I think that your tunnel vision has caused you to misunderstand completely.

LeSving wrote:

SERA and NCO is not effective everywhere. SERA is, but it is different everywhere anyway, and NCO is only in effect in Norway of all places, and has been so for over a year. Again, the point is, it is irrelevant for travelling across Europe. The obstacles are not the regs, but airspace.

You totally lost me. Why do you bring SERA and NCO up if they are not the problem?

I wasn’t aware that Part NCO was also in effect in Norway. I knew only about the UK.

I think that EASA is a convenient scapegoat to lots of people just like the EU is a scapegoat for UK issues prompting certain people to vote in favour of the Brexit.

The “decline” of PPL/Light GA was a big tale among the old folks already back in 1995, and that was before JAA and long before EASA. At that time Luftfartsverket was in charge, and according to the old geezers things were already very bad.

Last Edited by at 17 Jul 19:08
LFPT, LFPN

Aviathor wrote:

Actually there is ample proof on this forum (by @vieke, @dublinpilot, @Patrick, @Niner_Mike and many others) that it is perfectly feasible, and enjoyable, to fly VFR across Europe all the way to the border of Asia and even into Africa.

Thank’s for pointing this out and calling our attention. I haven’t read the entire thread yet as I’m just coming back from a weekend trip (VFR, enjoyable), but I think I need to defend us VFR lot here a bit…

LeSving wrote:

to fly across Europe with anything that remotely resembles a pleasant experience, requires IFR rating due to airspace mess and general ignorance from ATC.

@LeSving, I’m waiting for the day that I can agree with one of your bold, generic statements but here’s yet another one I have to very strongly disagree with. I’m spending a pretty substantial portion of my income touring across the continent VFR and let me assure you that it at least remotely resembles a pleasant experience. In fact, I couldn’t imagine anything better. The airspace “mess”, more often than not, sorts itself out in flight and you get to fly pretty much a straight line and I have yet to come across a single ATC operator that deserves to be called “generally ignorant”. I’ve only been flying for a good three years and maybe it’s a very, very long period of luck, but I’ve only been involved with genuinely helpful ATC so far, in any country I’ve been to. Well, maybe except for Dutch MIL, they’re nice enough but they don’t provide any service.

Essen-Mülheim (EDLE), Düsseldorf (EDDL), Paderborn (EDLP), Mönchengladbach (EDLN), Germany
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