I thought that France was a state of law unless it didn’t suit the Maire?
Aviathor wrote:
If you look at the aeronautical chart of the border between France and Germany, you will notice that the P-area around the nuclear powerplants stop at the border… On the German side you may infringe the 5 km radius, but not on the French side.
If you want to see something comic, look at the Londonderry Eglinton airport. On the Eire side of the FIR boundary, they have put a class C CTA for an airfield in a foreign country which cuts off sharply at the FIR boundary! It’s utterly bizarre.
I had never noticed. As you say, utterly bizarre!
what_next wrote:
Most probably. So I switched to the “3D” view (whatever this is supposed to be good for – here) and still I wouldn’t dare to fly throgh there VFR:
In the charts it looks terrifying, that’s true. That why it is much easier to contact FIS. I crossed through that area around Montpellier, Orange, etc… two times that summer. Going from La Cerdanya (LECD) to Gap (LFNA) and back. It was as easy as telling FIS once in France that we want to route direct to PINAN (to avoid overflying water) then direct to destination at 7500’. That easy.
In any case, I have also done that route one time not using FIS. Obviously not in a straight line that time. In that case you have to work out your way to keep outside CAS. Not so difficult with tools as Skydemon. And not so boring as keeping the same heading and altitude for almost two hours.
VFR in both cases. You can choose.
If you want to see something comic, look at the Londonderry Eglinton airport. On the Eire side of the FIR boundary, they have put a class C CTA for an airfield in a foreign country which cuts off sharply at the FIR boundary! It’s utterly bizarre.
I don’t think that’s all that bizarre at all! In Ireland, we have a policy that all scheduled airline traffic must be protected on approach and departure. So when an aircraft is on approach to an airfield, it will get the protection of controlled airspace and an ATC service, while in Irish airspace.
What the British do, is up to them. They’ve taken a different approach, and have decided that the risk of operating scheduled airline traffic in class G airpace, is acceptably low.
But there is no reason why the Irish regulators should change their standards in Irish airspace, because the British have a different risk assessment.
In the charts it looks terrifying, that’s true. That why it is much easier to contact FIS.
That is my experience in France too. Once you contact the ATC for that area, things become much easier.
While I don’t think that I’ve ever been refused a clearance in France, being a VFR pilot, I feel the need to have an alternative plan for the day that my request to transit some R area is denied. I remember a few years ago, trying to plan a flight that transited many military restricted areas close to the French/German border. So I duly checked all the restrictions. Many had intermittant times, so were only active for certain parts of the day, but of course it was different times for different areas, so no one flight time would solve the problem. Some were controlled by the same authority, but there was a range of about 5 different ATC units to contact (well they’d all different frequencies anyway).
It was so complicated, that I felt the need to write down what my plan would be if I didn’t get a clearance through a particular restricted area. There were so many possibilities, that I could just do it for the main ones. The trouble was that many were so small, that I needed to contact the next unit, before even entering the first area, otherwise there woudln’t be sufficient time. In the end, my plan had to come to, “If I’m refused through that one, that one and that one, then I’ll just land at this airport, and reconsider my options based on the info on the day!”
On calling up the first military ATC, he told me that I was cleared all the way to the German border! I double checked with him, because many of the area had different frequencies and call signs. The answer was a simple, “Yes, I control most of those areas today. The other ones you can go through staying on my frequency, as I’ve gotten a clearance for you from them.”
France looks very hard for a VFR pilot when looking at the chart. But once you talk to ATC, it’s a meca for VFR flying!
These threads always go the same way…
Pilot A: “French airspace is almost impossible to decode in places”
Pilot B: “Just all up ATC; they always just clear you through”
The first problem is that France is not all of Europe (and BTW neither is Norway and Sweden 
). When “we” are trained in the PPL, we are trained to plan a route before getting airborne. This is done for very good and extremely obvious reasons. Only helicopters, F35s and UFOs can just stop and land vertically.
The obvious gotcha is that the ATCO is not obliged to clear you through the next bit, whatever “next” is. In reality, French ATCOs usually do (but not necessarily through non-CAS areas which you need to avoid yourself, and this can make the flight a lot less trivial than you might think, which makes most of the “I flew right across France in a straight line” claims either lucky or disingenuous) except in some places e.g. near Paris and Lyon. But most other countries’ ATCOs won’t. IME, in Italy ATCO 1 clears you A-B-C (well, you told him you are routing A-B-C and he lets you get on with it, using the “French method” whereby an explicit clearance is not passed) and at B hands you over to ATCO 2 who tells you to get out of his CAS. Same in the UK; just because you got one bit doesn’t mean you will get the next bit. For example, often, flying from west to east via the Solent Class D, you can get cleared by Bournemouth and then Southampton will tell you to f off and you have to do a rapid dogleg and a dive down below the CAS.
The bigger Q I have is why France (and some other places) need to have un-decipherable CAS. The UK has managed without it (except the bit around Belfast). We did this in the D-ESPJ crash thread in which it was suggested by a French ATCO that the SIA chart is not meant to be flown with but is merely a graphical representation of the AIP! But then why have ATC at all, if the CAS structure is almost non-navigable? I just don’t get it. I realise most GA flying in these areas is flying very short local flights but I can’t believe I am the only pilot who likes to work out where he is going before getting airborne… there has to be a reason why this system exists in its present form. It’s just perverse.
Flying with a tablet nav app which shows the airspace at your level or suggests a level which clears it is not the solution. What if the tablet packs up? Almost nobody has an identical backup for this functionality.
Also not planning a route beforehand makes a mockery of stuff like fuel planning, and – when doing VFR more seriously – stuff like whether you need oxygen to clear some CAS. I originally bought my oxygen kit in 2003 to get above some Spanish stuff, because a transit could not be assured.
Peter wrote:
The bigger Q I have is why France (and some other places) need to have un-decpherable CAS
It obviously creates a compete mess wherever that occurs, and the use of ATC to guide VFR traffic from place to place is a highly inefficient band aid.
Imagine a road system where there are no clear road signs or GPS. Approaching every intersection, every car has to talk on the radio to somebody miles away while he monitors traffic with cameras watching the adjoining roads. Then he clears you through and tells you which road to take. I think that’s a valid analogy.
Peter wrote:
a tablet nav app which shows the airspace at your level or suggests a level which clears it is not the solution. What if the tablet packs up? Almost nobody has an identical backup for this functionality.
My impression is that virtually everybody has that kind of backup… I use my phone.
Ironically the jumble of CAS shown in the south of France chart actually contains one of the really great VFR flights – Montpellier to Cannes, mostly below 1000’, down to 600’ passing south of Marseilles. On a nice day it one of the best sightseeing flights in Europe.
Re the OP I’d hate to go back to VFR, I’ve got used to having my hand held
Peter wrote:
I can’t believe I am the only pilot who likes to work out where he is going before getting airborne
That is the point where I don’t follow your argument any more. Who has suggested that French pilots didn’t plan their flights in advance?
And obviously, there are several useful map products with different representations available, as well as the usual tablet apps. Just pick the one that suits you best.
And believe me, for strangers the airspace in southern England feels at least equally complex and intimidating as you may feel about French airspace. So the same arguments apply about having a map and a plan, or a good tablet product if you don’t want to get lost or infringe airspace when it’s the first time you are flying in that area.
Peter wrote:
Also not planning a route beforehand makes a mockery of stuff like fuel planning, and – when doing VFR more seriously – stuff like whether you need oxygen to clear some CAS. I originally bought my oxygen kit in 2003 to get above some Spanish stuff, because a transit could not be assured.
As Rwy20 has said, using the great help of FIS does not mean that you don’t prepare a plan B before taking off. But in my limited experience in France I have never needed to make use of it.
Just as info for future visitors, in Spain I’ve never been denied to cross any CAS (with the exception of Class A[*], obviously), and I’ve never heard of anybody who has not been cleared.
[*] in fact sometimes I’ve been cleared to go even inside Class A. For example departing from LECU to the north/northwest, where the Madrid TMA (A) forces you to remain very low until very near of the mountains in the north, sometimes they clear you to start climbing earlier even if this puts you inside the TMA.
