Is there too much elitism in GA?

@MedEvok
well, when I was 31 I did not even have the money for a pilot’s licence. But now I am 57 and own a $ 300 K airplane, because I can afford it. That in itself is not “elitist”, it just means I earn enough money to afford it. And one day when you are 57 and have your private clinic you’ll probably fly the TBM I could never afford. I hope you will.
So what? That’s life. It’s very European to have these thoughts.

It is the nature of what I do that I come into contact with a lot of very, very rich pilots, and the main thing I notice is how nice, and often quite humble, most of them are.

In 1989, I bought a second hand, less than a year old, repossessed Lada at the Glasgow car mart for £1600. This allowed me to buy a share in a Jodel DR1050 at the end of the year, also for £1600.
The Lada sold for £600 in 1993. It had been a reliable car.
I still have the Jodel Group share, the last share sold was £2200.
The plane at present is having some wing woodwork replaced before a fabric recover. The cost will be covered by money in the kitty.
At £60 per hour, it made an average profit of £34 per hour in 2015. There’s also £50 per month for hangarage and insurance, etc.
In 2015 I flew 60.9 tach hours for £4254, including everything except away landing charges.
Jodel DR1050s are offered with midlife engines for less than £20,000 if needing 8.33 and Mode S. We’ve upgraded both. They can get night and IFR permission in the UK.
Microlights are offered at £70,000, and the Icon 5 is now being delivered in the US at a much higher price, brand new.

…fly the TBM; I could never afford

OTOH “Dylan” in the 8900hrs you spent something like €1M (the price of a good TBM700C2) on avgas

So different people spend money on different things.

I do think we mustn’t forget that most people who afford expensive or newer aircraft are often self-employed and their aircraft is owned by the company

That is now very tricky in the UK (Benefit in Kind) and probably all European countries have some kind of similar tax rule otherwise every businessman would buy everything “on the firm”. The Isle of Man is beneficial in this regard

Not elitist, but there are some vintage types which have ramp presence and would be fun to operate as a business travel asset…

Beech 18
Cessna 195 Businessliner
B-26 Invader
DH Dove

An interesting conversation.
I think that there is some merit to MedEvok claim.
I was drawn to aviation since I was 4 years old (and still remember the moment). In 1997 I have started to fly, it wasn’t planed, just happened. I came across people that the only reason for them to be on the field was to sit in the bar and make sure that every one knows that they are great pilots, they all had loads of money, shiny new cars and multi engine aircraft but spent most of the time on the ground, they had no interest in flying, just showing off their wealth. At the same time they could sit in a golf club, marina, private club talking about their horses etc. However, the words “I am a pilot, do you want to pop to France for coffee?” works magic on many people. So yes, there used to be many “poszers” but I think that many of them just found their way out as a result of the general decline of GA and the migration to the sport aviation side of GA.

MedEwok, I think you are somewhat overdramatising things. There are plenty of German doctors who fly. Again it is about priorities and balancing your free income with the type of flying you do. I am really not sure what point you are making – that it is unfair that some people have money to spend on flying? That is the real world whether you are talking cars, boats, watches, horses, golf, skiing, bicycles, travelling or aircraft.

ChuckGlider wrote:

A different story though with some, repeat some, members of flying clubs. In my limited experience there are those who seem to like the idea of belonging to a flying club whether or not their annual, or even their total flying experience amounts to anything. Irritating but safely ignored.

Sorry, but IMO you are a bit fast to judge here. I am a member of two clubs, one is PPL/microlight, the other is a gliding club. I have owned shares in planes there to be able to fly the plane I want, and to help keep the club going with planes. One is the Army Cub from 1949, the other is the new tow plane, a Dynamic WT9, rather heavily modified tow plane (this also enables me to tow/fly as much as I want for free. Towing is great fun). The share in the Cub was paid back a couple of years ago, that was done with flight hours, so I could fly for “free” for a whole season and then some. The share in the WT9 is being paid back this moment, in record speed, because of the savings of using the WT9 instead of the previous Pawnee.

Many people do this, they lend the club money to finance planes and whatever else needed, with some remote hope of getting it back in some way, some day, if all goes OK. Others are more benevolent, they have no serious hopes of getting the money back. Typically they are in the 50s-60s when it’s done, and in the mean time, they have lost their medical, and don’t fly anymore. As they see it, they have no better use for the money anyway, and this is just a contribution to the flying community. Some of these “oldies” continue visiting the club, some don’t. It’s up to them. So if you meet someone at a club that hardly fly, or not at all, don’t be to fast to judge. Right now there is a Saab Safari, (not the one in the picture) that is for sale. Several club members, me included, would really like that one (both acro and IFR), but it seems the majority would like something else, something more “normal”. A good candidate for some private sponsoring in other words.

Again, cost. The club’s microlight have received new wheels, tires and brakes from Beringer. A rather big modification, Beringer cylinders and actuators at both ends. This would cost an arm and a leg on a certified aircraft. This was done by one of the instructors in the club, who also has the technical responsibility of that plane. Yesterday I was down there, and the stop for the parking hold didn’t function properly. So, I went home for the right tools, and we fixed it in minutes. On a certified aircraft, that little thing wouldn’t even be possible without some “organisation” doing an “engineering analysis” or whatever it is they do to mount some brackets and drill and tap a hole.

When I read the continuation of the “other” thread about the prop damage, I feel ill. A lot of bad luck there, but certainly not uncommon in the certified world. But there are alternatives. The alternative requires YOU to not be an elitist though

MedEwok wrote:

I can make lots of money in medicine but I will have almost zero time left to spend it.

Actually, I did not want to mention that as you are already sort of proving that you seem to be able to take time off for lessons, even though you have 1 1/2 kids. Time management or rather getting free time for anything at all has become a massive challenge for me with our first child, to the point where I yet have to fly since she has been born. I know many people who have this problem, not only people in higher positions but darn normal worker bees who can somehow not free enough time to even go to the pub between family and work. As a matter of fact, my first hiatus from flying in 2000 had to do with this and currently I am not sure if I will get back in the air before my SEP rating expires this year, as I would need some considerable catch up to do with hours and have no idea how to find the time.

MedEwok wrote:

My head of department probably makes around 300k a year (as a guess), but he’s in our hospital from 7am to 6pm every day plus half of all weekends and lots of night shifts. Not counting his almost 1 h commute. He also has four kids and a wife.

I have heard a lot of such stories from Germany and also in Switzerland, but it appears that quite a few of these people actually live for their profession and don’t need or actively want any spare time hobbies. As Jason and others say, working this kind of schedule and overtime WILL take it’s toll and in the end will neither benefit him nor his patients and how someone like that manages with a 4 child family is beyond me, having one and struggling.

JasonC wrote:

MedEwok, I think you are somewhat overdramatising things. There are plenty of German doctors who fly. Again it is about priorities and balancing your free income with the type of flying you do.

There are plenty of doctors but not all of them are working in such situations. I know several in Germany as friends outside flying and they all groan about the workload they have on them. One private practicioner I know has not had vaccations ever since she took over the practice she has and has also not had the time to even have visitors or a free weekend, as she struggles with paperwork to the extent that she works up to 18 hours a day, 7 days a week most time of the year. Again, this is also a personal thing, I am sure if she were in a different profession with her own company she’d do likewise, but especcially in Germany with their sometimes rather pronounced sense of duty it is not rare at all.

Those who I know flying usually work in administrative positions or have rather good working conditions or have a private practice they share with some others. In the end you are right, people like that need to figure out how to set priorities and how to delegate work.

For others it is not that easy, as I am finding out myself. Rising childern without any grandparents or relatives nearby puts a huge time demand on both parents and pre-school there is hardly any possibility to do anything other than rush to work and back home.

Time to do things you like to do is the much higher problem and commodity than money in many cases. That I think is the point he is trying to make and I fully agree out of my own experience.