Do you have to, by law, carry some form of identification at all times in the USA? I know you don’t in the UK but you should in France.
172driver wrote:
He can kiss his license goodbye. Simples.
In mainland Europe yes, in the UK no. Simply would not happen.
172driver wrote:
This attitude always amuses me. I’ve lived in the UK for about 20 years and was always stunned by the general deference to anyone with a yellow hi-viz west and some Health and Safety BS job title. Wouldn’t happen on the continent.
That’s different, and of course highly variable depending on what you’re doing. In aviation I agree it is a UK disease.
What I’m talking about is a requirement to prove who you are and your right/eligibility to be somewhere. That’s nothing to do with high-viz, health and safety or jobsworths, which are an unpleasant feature of UK life but ultimately not much to concern yourself about if you don’t mind telling them where to go.
In much of Europe you must carry ID at all times, and people in positions of authority have a right to see it ‘just because’. The UK doesn’t go in for this, presumably for deep-seated cultural reasons – after both world wars ID cards were quickly banished.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Apart, that is not how it works. You get a QR code and scan it for entering, all the landlord sees is yes or no.
As I said it won’t happen here on vaccination status, but there is something similar in that you are supposed to scan the QR code for the national test and trace system when you arrive at the pub. It’s not law (you can’t be compelled to have a smartphone, obviously) but pubs do it (or at least put the sign up) because it doesn’t look good if you don’t.
Most places around here seem to be making a very half-hearted effort. They ask you to scan, but that’s it. Many/most people waft their phones in the general direction, not even bothering to wake the screen up. If anyone refuses (most are realising that pretending to scan is easier than putting the staff in an awkward position) they are supposed to take your details by pen and paper but I suspect most names given are a less obvious form of M.Mouse and in any case you know the scrap of paper is destined for the bin.
The maybe joking / maybe not scenarios that @Silvaire describes are a very real threat. It is important that this nonsense is stamped out quite quickly, because it’s a very short hop from scanning for test ‘n’ trace to scanning for vacc status, and then to just scanning because well, you always have to scan everywhere, obviously, so that the government knows where you’ve been….. One must resist the regulatory ratchet.
vic wrote:
ou sit in jail till the police found out ?
Basically yes. Don’t forget: It’s the land of the (ones who are) free – it’s not the land where everybody is free…
As a non-citizen in the US you are required to carry ID with you at all times (Green Card or foreign passport). I never bothered about it but then I’m white. An Indian acquaintance got stopped in San Diego and ended up spending a night in jail because he didn’t have it.
On a different but Covid topic – how to scare people with statistics. My little rural corner of France (Landes, south of Bordeaux) got a whole half-page feature in Le Monde the other day because of the sudden rapid increase in Covid cases. The proportion of infected people had gone up by 10% is just one week. Shock horror! We’re all going to die!
But they did give the numbers. The figure in question had gone up from 46 / 100k to 51 / 100K – 9.4%. The population is 400,000 (I did say it was rural). Do the math, that works out to 22 more cases. And as it happens there was Ehpad (old folks’ home) where they had been an outbreak due to an infected, unvaxxed employee. You can pretty much guess the population of the Ehpad…
vic wrote:
Sorry, no, I don´t believe stories like you don´t need any ID card in your country when on your way.
Well, you don’t. You don’t need to carry ID and you don’t need to tell a policeman who you are (or prove it) just because he wants to know.
This is lifted directly from gov.uk on the subject of police powers:
Stop and question: police powers
A police officer might stop you and ask:
* what your name is
* what you’re doing in the area
* where you’re going
You don’t have to stop or answer any questions. If you don’t and there’s no other reason to suspect you, then this alone can’t be used as a reason to search or arrest you
You may find it odd @vic, and you’re entitled to your view. I believe it’s an important freedom.
Some people in the UK (I think they are referred to as having ‘chaotic lifestyles’) do indeed make life challenging for the police by remaining uncooperative on the subject of their identify even when arrested. You may write it in jest, but it is not at all uncommon for people suspected of a crime to be held in a cell while the police try to figure out who they are.
Malibuflyer wrote:
vic wrote:
ou sit in jail till the police found out ?
Basically yes.
No, in fact. They will obviously do what they can to try and identify you, but the rule (with very few exceptions, related to very serious crimes or terrorism) is that they have 24hrs to charge you with a specific crime or they must release you. This clock does not stop just because they don’t know who you are.
Malibuflyer wrote:
What really shocks me is that now before the 4th wave we do see an exact copy of what happened before the third one.
Exactly. Surprising though? Not really. We’ve seen it before, haven’t we.
Graham wrote:
In much of Europe you must carry ID at all times, and people in positions of authority have a right to see it ‘just because’.
And in quite a few countries you also require address registration. So the evil government knows where you live. And the even more evil post office has a fighting chance of finding you.
I have to admit, sometimes when I watch stuff like the search for lost family members e.t.c. on British TV i could not help thinking, how odd how people simply can disappear and no registry office or anyone can find them. Would not happen here at all. Anyone who lives in Switzerland can be found.
Hence here the hubbub about a Covid pass is minimal. You got your ID, you got your health insurance card you need to show every time you want to buy prescription medicine or visit the doc, you got your drivers license, pilots license, dog license, e.t.c.
But you know what I really find funny: People get their knickers in a double loop because of a legit ID? But at the same time they carry a smart phone all the time which has their whole life circumstances fully visible on the inside and which allows them to be traced to the square foot where they currently are? And that is no problem but carrying an ID is?
Apart, sorry, but I really would prefer to be able to show my ID to a night in prison, anywhere. And never mind they have to let you out in 24 hours either.
We don’t have national ID cards in Ireland either and they would not be welcome here.
The difference isn’t so much about being able to prove your identity. The difference is, in the absence of any reason or suspicion, are you obliged to identify yourself to a police officer simply because they ask? In Ireland you are not required to do so.
If a police officer asks me to identify myself, I most likely will give him my name and address (after asking why he wants it). If he asks for proof of my ID, and I have something with me, then I’ll probably show it to them. But if for some reason I choose not to give my name and address, or if I don’t have any ID on me (very likely the case unless I’m driving) then he can not arrest me or give me a fine simply for that.
If on the other hand, be believes that I’ve committed a crime, he can indeed arrest me for that, and the fact that I can’t prove my identity makes an arrest more likely until they can establish my ID.
I appreciate that it’s different for some, but for those of us who have grown up without the need to prove our identity, the idea that a police man could arrest us or fine us simply because we left home and forgot to bring our ID with us (or lost it on the way) is a terrible thought. We would see that as similar to needing to prove our innocence, or our right to be where we are.
We instead feel that the police should have no right to hinder us, unless they have reason to believe that we are breaking the law. We see their job as being one of preventing and investigating crime, and not harassing the law abiding citizens as part of that role.
In practice, I suspect there is little difference between the two systems. There probably aren’t many people arrested in Germany because a police officer choose them at random to ask for ID, and they didn’t have it with them. Most times when the police ask for ID, they already have suspicions.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
But you know what I really find funny: People get their knickers in a double loop because of a legit ID? But at the same time they carry a smart phone all the time which has their whole life circumstances fully visible on the inside and which allows them to be traced to the square foot where they currently are? And that is no problem but carrying an ID is?
The smartphone is my choice. I can turn it (or the GPS function) off, or I can leave it at home. I don’t have to own one at all, but I do because I believe its usefulness outweighs the privacy concerns. Please don’t tell me you subscribe to the conspiracy theories that your phone is tracked to the square foot all the time, even when switched off, etc.
I don’t mind the concept of an ID card but I don’t think it’s very useful to me because my driving licence already suffices if I find it necessary to prove who I am. It might serve a purpose for the relatively small proportion of economically-active society that doesn’t have a driving licence. What I object to is a requirement to carry it (same with the driving licence – and in keeping with our traditions you are not required to have it with you when driving) and a requirement to produce it on demand.
Blair’s government tried to introduce ID cards. To address the considerable opposition to them the proposals were watered down such that the card was completely optional and no-one would be required to carry it. The government then realised it would then be totally useless as a tool for exerting authority, so quietly dropped it.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Apart, sorry, but I really would prefer to be able to show my ID to a night in prison, anywhere. And never mind they have to let you out in 24 hours either.
Thankfully in the UK you don’t have to choose between the two. You don’t need ID and you can’t be locked up for not having it. The 24 hours is the ‘charge or release’ timeframe when the police arrest someone on suspicion of a crime – whether they know their identity or not. It has nothing to do with having ID or not, and you can’t be arrested for refusing to identify yourself.
