Airborne_Again wrote:
I find it hard to believe that there is a public aversion in the UK of the government “monitoring our movements” given that the UK was the European pioneer in putting surveillance cameras in public areas.
It goes with the notion of “freedom” which is as much an illusion as any. In my experience, “freedom” is just an utopia which people love to tell about their lifes. Do I know anyone who really is free? No. Everyone has obligations, is ruled by the wishes and needs of others and in the end will try to somehow keep out of trouble by satisfying as many of those as humanly possible only to find out that there still remains enough which simply can’t be done in the time we have in our lifes.
Isn’t the answer “I don’t have time” the most often heard reply in any conversation we have these days? And probably also the most honest, as we really lack time for just about anything out of the threadmill of work, family and some time getting some sleep.
Anyone who has kids who go to school has no freedom to plan their lifes as it is planned for them. Anyone working will get the schedule from their boss. Anyone married will need to adopt his life to that of his spouse and the needs of their family members.
There can’t be any freedom where people live on tight spaces together. Rules, regulation, policing is necessary to keep them from getting on each others nerves or killing each other if the latter fails. The rest is taken care of by egoism. Those with the bigger egos will dominate those with the lesser, as Darwinian as it goes.
Clearly, some of this is our own decision. We don’t need to marry, we don’t need kids, we can decide not to work, we can lead solitary lifes in some Mongolian desert which probably gets close enough to freedom in the sense that nobody but your empty stomach will rule what you need to do. But the moment you engage in any sort of human interaction, the notion of freedom is out of the window. For this we don’t need governments or obscure fantasies like big oil, big pharma or big evil world government. And in order to make it more obscure and enraging, people are good to appoint guilt to someone obscure and out of reach such as politicians or worse, groups of race, religion or colour to vent their anger as it is way too frightening to vent it at the real sources of aggravation.
So for me the whole whining about civil liberties and freedom is just the rants of unruly children trying to fight the inevitable.
I myself can not remember a day where I really was free to do what I wanted, not since I actually can remember. Yet I don’t look at this as slavery or oppression, it is simply the way it is. Certainly there are people who have more freedom in their daily life, which usually coincides with having the financial means, but the huge majority of people live day to day and paycheck to paycheck. Freedom is the big illusion which keeps people from realizing their own dystropic situation, yet sometimes it would be better to acknowledge it and simply try to make the best of each day rather than to chase unreachable stars. An hour in the pub with friends, a swim in a lake or the sea, a week of holiday in the company of loved ones should be more important than the chase of unattainable fantasies.
It is very rare, in my experience, outside of the borders with third countries that I have ever been asked for ID in the whole of Europe (Schengen area) I think the police have better things to do.
I have been stopped to show insurance documents, once in 30 years and twice in the same timescale for a random breath test.
In the opinion of many round here its the Gendarmes being sent out at the end of the month to get their numbers up to prove to number crunchers that they are needed.
Otherwise, I have only needed to show my ID when using a cheque to make a purchase. 30 years ago even that was un necessary as the punishment from the Bank of France for a bounced cheque was such that people didn’t find it a worthwhile thing to do.
Others may have a different experience. I remember @skydriller writing about the number of times he was stopped to show his Covid attestation. I don’t know whether or not he was asked for proof of identity at the same time. Whilst there I was filling out this form every time I left the house and feeling hard done by for never being stopped.😉
Mooney_Driver wrote:
So for me the whole whining about civil liberties and freedom is just the rants of unruly children trying to fight the inevitable.
Well, yes. Some people prefer an authoritarian system while others prefer a liberal system. For me, the authoritarians can submit themselves if they wish, as long as I don’t have to. (Please note that civil liberties and freedom are not the same as egoism. I feel very strongly that you have to show solidarity with your fellows. I loathe the randian view.)
gallois wrote:
I remember @skydriller writing about the number of times he was stopped to show his Covid attestation. I don’t know whether or not he was asked for proof of identity at the same time.
I can’t answer for @skydriller but I certainly had to show my ID with the covid pass. It also sais on the covid pass that it is only vaild with an ID, so it goes without saying really. Also makes sense, as anyone can print out a sheet of paper with a valid QR code if no verification is possible.
Freedom is not an illusion. Just ask anyone who is in jail. But it is not absolute or without bounds. Our personal freedom ends where it impacts others’ freedom or personal integrity.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Do I know anyone who really is free?
What do you mean by “really free”? As you mention, we consciously or unconsciously continually make decisions in our lives that limit our own freedom. How we spend our money is a freedom, but it has consequences as you describe. But that doesn’t mean we have less freedom.
Freedom is not the same as privacy. If comments in this forum are true, many pilots fly around in the UK without transponders or with them turned off to avoid detection in the name of freedom and/or privacy, it is not clear to me which is being claimed. Yet the UK government has been able to vaccinate 95% of the older population via directly contacting those who haven’t vaccinated by using their health records. That is not legally possible in Switzerland due to data protection laws. Many of the freedoms that have been achieved over the past 70 years in some/many countries are now being challenged or reversed. In others they have never existed.
Airborne_Again wrote:
I find it hard to believe that there is a public aversion in the UK of the government “monitoring our movements” given that the UK was the European pioneer in putting surveillance cameras in public areas. Still every time I visit London, I’m surprised by the sheer number of cameras. Especially as UK studies show that surveillance cameras do not reduce crime. They can help solve crimes, of course.
Pioneer ;-) it’s a bit darker than that I’m afraid… London is the leader of surveillance in Europe. It has 68.4 cameras per 1,000 people. Berlin takes second place with 11.18 cameras per 1,000 people. Warsaw is ranked third with an estimated 7.85 CCTV cameras per 1,000 people.
Fun statistic, London is beating every Chinese city ;-).
Taiyuan, China – 465,255 cameras for 3,975,985 people = 117.02 cameras per 1,000 people
Wuxi, China – 300,000 cameras for 3,315,113 people = 90.49 cameras per 1,000 people
London, England (UK) – 691,000 cameras for 9,425,622 people = 73.31 cameras per 1,000 people
Indore, India – 200,600 cameras per 3,113,445 people = 64.43 cameras per 1,000 people
Changsha, China – 262,000 cameras for 4,694,722 people = 55.81 cameras per 1,000 people
Beijing, China – 1,150,000 cameras for 20,896,820 people = 55.03 cameras per 1,000 people
Hangzhou, China – 400,000 cameras for 7,845,501 people = 50.98 cameras per 1,000 people
Qingdao, China – 262,000 cameras for 5,742,486 people = 45.62 cameras per 1,000 people
Kunming, China – 200,000 cameras for 4,550,831 people = 43.95 cameras per 1,000 people
Xiamen, China – 150,000 cameras for 3,790,792 people = 39.57 cameras per 1,000 people
Harbin, China – 250,000 cameras for 6,526,439 people = 38.13 cameras per 1,000 people
Hyderabad, India – 375,000 cameras for 10,268,653 people = 36.52 cameras per 1,000 people
Suzhou, China – 270,000 cameras for 7,427,096 people = 36.35 cameras per 1,000 people
Shanghai, China – 1,000,000 cameras for 27,795,702 people = 35.98 cameras per 1,000 people
Urumqi, China – 160,000 cameras for 4,543,684 people = 35.21 cameras per 1,000 people
Delhi, India – 551,500 cameras for 16,349,831 people = 33.73 cameras per 1,000 people
Chengdu, China – 310,000 cameras for 9,305,116 people = 33.32 cameras per 1,000 people
Shenzhen, China – 400,000 cameras for 12,591,696 people = 31.77 cameras per 1,000 people
Ji’nan, China – 160,000 cameras for 5,513,597 people = 29.02 cameras per 1,000 people
Shenyang, China – 200,000 cameras for 7,373,655 people = 27.12 cameras per 1,000 people
many pilots fly around in the UK without transponders or with them turned off to avoid detection in the name of freedom and/or privacy, it is not clear to me which is being claimed.
It is almost totally to avoid getting busted under this crazy scheme. It is almost never to do with privacy, or at least I have never known anybody who cares about that, in the FR24 context.
Elsewhere, it is done for other reasons; some to do with straight privacy but in some communities because the flight is not quite completely legal 
Yet the UK government has been able to vaccinate 95% of the older population via directly contacting those who haven’t vaccinated by using their health records.
I think that is reasonable, in a national crisis like this would have been if people didn’t get vacced.
That is not legally possible in Switzerland due to data protection laws
I am amazed by that (that the govt cannot even contact the citizens in such a situation) and I wonder how much of a crisis it would take for Switzerland to reverse that position? 10% mortality? 30%?
The test of a democracy will be how the restrictions get rolled back when this crisis is over. Some won’t be, I am sure…
London is the leader of surveillance in Europe. It has 68.4 cameras per 1,000 people.
I wonder who collected that statistic, because nobody could possibly watch all that footage. But yet we do have lots of CCTV. It is seen as an easy and cheap way to reduce street crime, which is why most people accept it.
Peter wrote:
I am amazed by that (that the govt cannot even contact the citizens in such a situation) and I wonder how much of a crisis it would take for Switzerland to reverse that position? 10% mortality? 30%?The test of a democracy will be how the restrictions get rolled back when this crisis is over. Some won’t be, I am sure…
Switzerland (as the only civilised nation in the world) has direct democracy. Any citizen (can gather 100k signatures) for a referendum on a matter to be held. Democracy doesn’t get any more direct than that and I continue, from my business positions and our geographical position next to CH, to be amazed by the Swiss peoples commitment to their civic duties.
I’m afraid a system like that would not work anywhere else in Europe (wouldn’t in my native Belgium, my home country France, and for sure not in the UK)
Peter wrote:
I wonder who collected that statistic, because nobody could possibly watch all that footage.
AI progress is achieving wonders. Just ask Google, and they’ll help you out.
If a government functionary knew who I was, how to contact me, and with that info could pester me about my vaccination status, I would be extremely stressed and unhappy. I find the concept outrageous, obscene and think it would be offensive to almost any American. For some reason, even though the UK is quite liberal in many ways, after a couple of days there I find the words “mind your own business” rattling through my head like the a song that won’t go away. Boundaries don’t seem to be respected. I also spend time in Germany where the same is also true (for me) but although it’s obviously a culture dominated by rules, somehow and notwithstanding the cracked curtain stereotype people individually keep to their own business a bit more. Just my observation. In Italy (where I have spent many months) people are socially adept and I don’t see the quite same invasion of government regulation into daily life, although one is always aware that authority can come down on you like a ton of bricks. The appealing feature there is that people don’t respect pointless authority and mostly find ways together to work around it. In combination with the generally open and friendly population it’s much like the US in that regard.
I think of my vacation trips to Europe as analogous to visits to Disneyland, which is similarly constrained. The rules and procedures for ‘everything’ would be annoying to me long term, but can be tolerated for a while in order to enjoy the history, culture and geography, developed by nature and people in a different time. Those things I obviously love, given the roughly 50+ trips I’ve made so far. Again just my opinion, no more valid than anybody else’s, but that is the way I approach it in order not to go insane dealing with the over regulation and governmental invasion into the management of life’s daily activities, finances and property.
