Looking for an old UK CAA VFR chart (UK post CAS infringement procedure)

Alpha_Floor wrote:

So I wouldn’t rely on controllers warning you about imminent CAS busts. I am sure that Brize ATC would have happily said nothing while I busted the London TMA.

Absolutely. A diligent controller who is not too busy might (and I have overheard it) but that would be well under 50% of the time and not something you could rely on at all.

While flying non-transponder once I actually had a controller try to turn me into the LTMA. I was on a basic and had asked for a traffic, and after a short delay I was instructed to turn left 30 degrees for identification. I replied negative, that’ll bust the LTMA and they said ok 30 degrees turn right then. Hard to work out what was going on here because if they didn’t already have a decent idea which blip on the screen I was I’d have expected the identifying turn to have been preceded by a request for my position.

Alpha_Floor wrote:

So I wouldn’t rely on controllers warning you about imminent CAS busts. I am sure that Brize ATC would have happily said nothing while I busted the London TMA.

Not sure if Brize ATC could see you flagged in purple by CAIT if you hit LTMA? but surely all London Radar units have that
Then you will have 15 seconds before things get auto-logged & auto-printed letter sent to your home adress

Graham wrote:

While flying non-transponder once I actually had a controller try to turn me into the LTMA. I was on a basic and had asked for a traffic, and after a short delay I was instructed to turn left 30 degrees for identification. I replied negative, that’ll bust the LTMA and they said ok 30 degrees turn right then.

And its great that you were aware and called out the situation to the controller – but how many would have blindly complied? Who’s fault would that have been? (Im pretty sure I know)

The one time I know I had a airspace bust in France was having specifically asked an FIS about the status of a Restricted area/CTR and told it was inactive. Later discovered it wasnt after contacting the next frequency and on explaining was told (and you could almost hear the gallic shrug) “Boff, you are the third one this afternoon…” which kinda made me wonder why someone hadnt contacted the other FIS and told them specificly…

Regards, SD..

I wouldn’t put it ‘happily said nothing’ – you were on a Basic service, you should expect nothing. The frequency may well sound quiet to you but the controller may well be working multiple other frequencies and tasks. Many military controllers may also be working UHF frequencies and aircraft.

Peter wrote:

That’s correct; no obligation on ATC to warn of a CAS bust. I think that is true for VFR traffic everywhere, not just the UK, but the UK is probably exceptional in that you can be under a radar unit and they will still MOR you if you infringe.

I can’t even begin to count the number of times I have heard Langen Information call: “D-ABCD, please state your intentions with regards the Class Charlie airspace ahead” so there are obviously many controllers who react proactively…. just not in the UK

For the avoidance of doubt, I don’t fly D-ABCD

MattL wrote:

you were on a Basic service, you should expect nothing.

We may have identified the fundamental flaw in the UK’s ATSOCAS ;-)

MattL wrote:

you were on a Basic service, you should expect nothing.

Well, not true! At least a QNH, right? :)

MattL wrote:

you were on a Basic service, you should expect nothing

Sure but, not to open a can of worms here: what is the point of a basic service anyway if you should expect nothing?

I am not implying the basic service provider “has” to give you airspace advisories. They don’t need to monitor the flight. But come on, if they don’t want or aren’t able to provide you “some” level of service beyond a QNH I believe they should ask you to switch to another station.

It is a dangerous situation for the pilot to have the impression that he is being given “some” service when in reality he isn’t. It’s better to have the certainty that no service is being provided and you are on your own entirely, which is what happens so frequently with these basic services which should really be called “ambiguous services”.

The worst offender here is the “REDUCED traffic service”. What is that? Is it an enhanced basic service? Can you expect them to monitor you? Should you not? I would much rather have it either black or white: either you give me the service or you don’t give it. But this “reduced service” business is kind of useless in my view.

We agree that the pilot is ultimately legally responsible here, not claiming otherwise, but it’s a “human factors” concern that I believe should be addressed.

It seems odd to me that when you’re receiving a service, you shouldn’t expect any service at all.

Why bother in the first place