Peter wrote:
Naturally, I expect aeroclub members to defend aeroclubs
and vice versa :-)
I definitely do think clubs are a good way to get people started – I learned to fly in France and as you can see from my handle still think I am learning. I started in an Aeroclub of which I am still a member. I pay my license to the aeroclub every year – and engage in some (though very little) of the club social events.
For things like IFR ratings etc… the club wasn’t the right structure. Agree with the unreliability of renting for touring, which is my thing and why I bought the Comanche, which came with the hangar on the airfield (run by the aero club and maintained by the aeroclub). So clubs in my view great for starting, if you want more than that, I suppose you are free to move on. Not unlike many other sports that are individual in nature I think…
Well, Peter, I think what has been said here was pretty to the spot, at least what I can see here.
PPL’s train in clubs to a very large extent, mainly because they are MUCH cheaper than professional FTO’s who want to make money with ATPL students. therefore, for the normal PPL with no ambition to go further, clubs are for many the only affordable way to get the license.
There is nothing at all wrong with that either. Clubs which are residents of international airports often also are the only kind of lobby all GA has at this place. The work MFGZ have done in ZRH (together with AOPA but they have done most of the work) has kept us here… 700 people still is a valid club lobby which they can’t really ignore.
What I think is wrong,i said earlier. Clubs should be more accomodating to members with own airplanes, some are, others are not. Clubs should be less restrictive with the use of their airfield, but again, that is for lawmakers to decide, some clubs have good integrations, others fight owners.
But to say the clubs hinder GA is way over the top, but it is a good discussion.
I think the club structure is great for getting people started but then keeps people “in their place” (an English idiom – like the ancient “a woman’s place is in the kitchen”).
It is done mostly in a subtle way, via a disapproving frown from the President, whose weight will be massively obvious to the recipient, without much being said. Sometimes it is more direct e.g. “young man, you don’t have the experience for this [massively complicated flight from Shoreham to Le Touquet]”). Ultimately, since nearly all members are renting, they won’t be able to do an “unapproved” trip.
Most members accept the tradeoff, and most IMHO never discover how much more fun GA can be if you do these “unapproved” trips.
I base my views on what many pilots have told me privately. Also plenty of posts in old threads, with some truly outrageous stuff going on…
There are also big differences between countries in how this works (or doesn’t).
Peter wrote:
It is done mostly in a subtle way, via a disapproving frown from the President, whose weight will be massively obvious to the recipient, without much being said. Sometimes it is more direct e.g. “young man, you don’t have the experience for this [massively complicated flight from Shoreham to Le Touquet]”).
Most clubs run online booking systems, I suppose. Ours does. It’s not like you walk into the big, evil President’s office and timidly ask permission for the keys to do a flight. That idea seems comical to me.
The only interaction I had with the club’s president in the last year was him leaving a Happy Birthday note on my Facebook timeline and the interactions I’ve had with the director were when I really needed help (tech problems or keys not there) and he went out of his way multiple times to help out (coming out to the field on a Sunday afternoon from his home BBQ, a 45 minute drive). Not to say this should be taken for granted, but I frankly believe this is the norm in clubs hereabouts, rather than the disapprovingly frowning type.
I went from PPL at an ATO to a club and knew almost immediately it wasn’t for me. 2 hour max slots on the weekend. Instructor required for your first trip to any airfield you hadn’t been to before, a general sense of bemusement at PPL/IR aspirations. All for a not particularly attractive rate. I’m sure there’s reasons for all of the restrictions but I got into flying to go places and a club with one or two aircraft and 20 members doesn’t really support that.
To be clear, I’m no longer a member of the club in the U.K., and I ony am in one of France because of administrative reasons (I need to in order to rent the planes for the mountain flying). I actually never visited the facilities! I do see the rules though, and they have planes like the SR22 available for hire for touring, with an online booking system!
Same as he one in the U.K., I can’t recall having to ask for permission to go abroad for extended weekends, and one would ask where I’d go, and I did a few.
These days I only rent from private owners (DA40, DA42, SR22, C210), and some day will buy the equivalent of a SR22 or DA42 but right now I put the money in other priorities to try to make it grow (makes a difference as in early 30s, there’s more potential to make grow for later). I ask the owners out of courtesy before landing at a place like Barra (sand), but never had any issue.
Did you personally have an issue with a club president Peter? (I’ve also read about some issues, such as Vieke, but these seem to be less representative (in my own experience and reading from here – although I think this thread will be naturally bisased towards defending clubs) than you seem to think
I would also like to propose the view that the club board / HT have a duty to protect club assets. Which means they are, arguably, required to take an interest in a member’s planned flight and use their best judgment to determine if they consider it a safe proposition – for the club’s asset, for the pilot and for the passengers. That’s why there is a yearly “knowledge test” and a “validation flight” requirement for those who want to rent club planes. I don’t see it as unreasonable. Of course it all depends on the board / HT / instructor, but I’d like to believe that the truly nonsensical people will alienate themselves enough to become a non-issue.
Renting for longer trips is not realistically possible in the club I belong to, due to shortage of planes. The three (2xC152, 1xP208) are booked solid for training and local flights; we have an ultralight, A22, which we make available for longer trips, but there aren’t many people interested. For the longer rental we require the HT (or instructor designated by HT) approve the plan, and off you go.
I hope we will be getting more planes in due time, once the ones we’re using now are paid off.
Peter you should consider that your negative experiences with clubs might be an anomaly or at least atypical for clubs outside the UK.
I think aeroclubs are the liveblood of GA. Then again my first and only club might be atypically good…
I think the club structure is great for getting people started but then keeps people “in their place”
I think I agree The typical club hire rate and the club’s need to maximise revenue from the aircraft is generally against pilots who want to ‘go places’.
I am an aeroclub member. I joined the club to learn to fly. I am still a member 2 years on from getting my PPL because there is a bit more training that I want to do (in an ‘own’ aircraft) and for the first year or so I was reliant on club rental. I was thankful, in the early days, to have some experienced flyers to ask advice.
In my part of the UK club hire is close to £200/hour for a four seater and an extra £100 for a check flight if I have not flown for 28 days. I can’t be away from base at night and only during the week could I possibly take the aircraft all day in return for less than a couple of hours flying. So even flying to Bembridge for a Sunday by the sea is a non starter ….. makes it difficult to build up to longer trips and even then, the cost becomes prohibitive.
The same club runs a number of syndicate aircraft which would be much cheaper to fly but involve ownership and I not keen on owning the aircraft types available.
The better ‘club’ for going places for me is the non equity group I am in. My ‘membership’ is a few quid to cover my share of the monthly fixed costs and I pay about 60% of the club hourly rate. I get the benefit of shared expeience and, if I want it, someone to share the cockpit and the costs to help me build my experience. I suspect a lot of syndicate owners have the same view.
There are pros and cons for both but in my very limited experience an aeroclub is the place to learn or to fly enough hours to keep your licence. Beyond that, it is expensive and the club’s priorities work against the pilot who wants a bit of independence.
