Aviathor wrote:
Could you share what the standard is, Mooney_Driver, and where is it described?
I am referring to the fact that you need local knowledge like described in the post I quoted to actually fulfill the customs obligations, eg. finding a shack glued to the terminal at some space e.t.c.
A standard customs procedure for me would be that after arrival and prior to departure you would have to pass a counter at the GAC or C office or, where one of those is missing, get your check by the authorized person at the C office. It also would include, if necessary, a standardized PPR procedure for all airports of one country rather than individual procedures for each airfield.
Avignon for instance has the AIP entry you quoted. It does however not mention how you fulfil the obligation other than to contact the airport operator. In fact, the form is available, as quoted by Wilco. How are you supposed to find it however if you are not familiar with that airport?
Every airport has it’s own form somewhere stashed away on their websites which you then need to complete, often including pax data which may change e.t.c and then submit it at a randomly selected time before your flight. One wants 2 hours, one 4, one 24, others 2 weeks, e.t.c.
That is what I mean with standardized. Let’s say for France, they could have ONE form for every airport at the SIA Site or elsewhere published in the AIP which goes for ALL airports. Same goes for Switzerland and others, where every airport has it’s own little procedure with different time frames and requirements.
After reading all 130 messages in this thread I really start to appreciate that I live in a country which is both part of the EU and Schengen…
The problem, MD, is that some French airports have actually started doing a “standard website” and it is a bloody mess. Obviously somebody saw a commercial opportunity here and then somebody was paid €10 per line of server-side code 
Also: where should one look for airport data.
Ask somebody who has to deal with this stuff for a living and at short notice i.e. a bizjet pilot!
Peter wrote:
That email address goes AFAIK to the very desk at which you turn up. The person at that desk knows everything there is to know of relevance about you. The normal practice is that this “desk” arranges the police. IOW, the airport (or the police based there) arranges for the police check. That is how aviation works. The pilot doesn’t go around the airport looking for the police!
That is exactly right. At airports where there is no permanent customs (and hence PNR) they should come to you, or they should be in your path from the airplane to landside. That is the case at Avignon. But that supposes that you do not depart before the time of notice, and on arrival you do not leave the airport before the notified time of arrival.
Peter wrote:
It’s no use quoting ICAO regs.
I was trying to find some reference about the pilot in command’s obligations wrt to not departing before the time of notice or leaving the airport before the time notified for arrival, and more generally international practices for customs/immigration at unattended airports.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
I am referring to the fact that you need local knowledge like described in the post I quoted to actually fulfill the customs obligations, eg. finding a shack glued to the terminal at some space e.t.c.
No local knowledge is required. Local knowledge is offered – it does not mean it is required.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Avignon for instance has the AIP entry you quoted. It does however not mention how you fulfil the obligation other than to contact the airport operator. In fact, the form is available, as quoted by Wilco. How are you supposed to find it however if you are not familiar with that airport?
Contacting the airport operator does fulfill the PNR at Avignon in accordance with the AIP entry. What more do you want? At some airports they give you a phone# or mail address to customs. Other places it is OPS/handling that take care of transmitting your notice to customs. If they require a specific form they will communicate it to you. In any case it is documented in either AIP or NOTAM.
If you change your times of arrival or departure, you need to communicate that. You can’t assume that changes to the FPL takes care of it.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Every airport has it’s own form somewhere stashed away on their websites which you then need to complete, often including pax data which may change e.t.c and then submit it at a randomly selected time before your flight. One wants 2 hours, one 4, one 24, others 2 weeks, e.t.c.That is what I mean with standardized. Let’s say for France, they could have ONE form for every airport at the SIA Site or elsewhere published in the AIP which goes for ALL airports. Same goes for Switzerland and others, where every airport has it’s own little procedure with different time frames and requirements.
Let me just point out that it is exactly the same at for example Lausanne. There is a form stashed away on their website that I was unable to find last time I was in Lausanne, which is when we met. The airport OPS will send it to you when you tell them you inted to come.
You cannot be expected to know where the form is. The only thing you can do is follow the indications in the AIP and notify whatever phone# or e-mail address is provided. If they want you to fill in a form, they will tell you. What is the big deal?
lenthamen wrote:
After reading all 130 messages in this thread I really start to appreciate that I live in a country which is both part of the EU and Schengen…
Some people are making it a lot more complicated that it is. This is in turn due to others spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.
Aviathor wrote:
Let me just point out that it is exactly the same at for example Lausanne. There is a form stashed away on their website that I was unable to find last time I was in Lausanne, which is when we met. The airport OPS will send it to you when you tell them you inted to come.
It’s the same everywhere, Germany, France, Switzerland e.t.c. That is why I say it should be standardized so you don’t need to search for the right information outside the AIP.
Why are you defending a system which is unnecessarily complicated and where the information is not standardized?
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Why are you defending a system which is unnecessarily complicated and where the information is not standardized?
It is not complicated. Comply with AIP and NOTAM. If there are any forms you need they will we given to you. Why complicating it? It is dead simple.
What complicates things in Switzerland and Germany is the lack of access to AIP for non-IFR airfields
Aviathor wrote:
What complicates things in Switzerland and Germany is the lack of access to AIP for non-IFR airfields
Full agreement.
I doubt it is anything to do with the AIP or any other process, as much as these would be helpful. The fact of the matter is the police in pretty much any State are not responsible to the airport authority or to the AIP. If they have good reason to inspect a flight I suspect they will, and probably rightfully so. However, the airport authority should equally have complete control over the sterile area of the airport and prevent any activity that could place the aircraft or people on the apron at risk. I therefore come back to my earlier point that it is unacceptable for people to be on the active area of the airport without the authority of AT, and, if they have given their authority, then the pilot should be alerted. In that way the police do what needs to be done, but in a controlled way.
The fact of the matter is that if AT give you an instruction to return to the ramp and you do not comply then you are in breach of the legislation and shouldnt be surprised if you are interecepted after departure – simples – so there is patently no need or justification for anyone wandering around the apron unless they are there with AT’s authority and the pilot has been alerted. If they are not the incident should be reported and the appropriate action taken.
Follow this simple scenario and all this is irrelevant.
A couple of months ago I flew to Poitiers – I had never been before and fancied a weekend there. I checked the AIP which is my standard practice and Customs was PNR24 with an email address which infers they do not have a permanent customs presence. I emailed customs on the Thursday lunchtime with an ETA of the following day at 17:00Z. Due to a weather front coming in the next day, we departed early and I arrived 90mins before the advised time. Not knowing the infrastructure layout of the airport I went to the GA exit where security was, asked where customs was, to be told that there was not customs here and to exit through ‘that door’. I asked what about the main terminal, the chap just kept saying go out over there….so we did. Later that evening I received a rather stern email from customs asking where I was at 17:00Z? They knew I had landed 90 mins early and also asked why I didn’t try to find them, as they were on the airport at the time accepting a Ryanair flight. They had obviously remained there until my advised arrival time, or returned later.
I emailed a response with an explanation for my early arrival and an apology. For the return flight on the Sunday I ensured I departed at the advised time and purposely sort out the customs.
So, lessons learned was to always try to find customs and don’t take at face value the responses from airport staff. They may not be up to speed on the full customs requirements for flights coming from the UK. On a more wider issue, customs don’t always turn up and weather can change within that PNR24 which necessitates either an earlier or later departure. So should one amend the time and email again?
