This may sound a bizarre question, but I have just read a confusing account of a confused IFR/Eurocontrol flight where one country had the man’s flight plan but another country didn’t seem to, etc.
I think we have all seen that sort of thing at times and kind of worked around it, but I wonder how close we may have got to creating a pretty disastrous situation.
A few weeks ago I was flying Bergerac-Elba and somewhere in the bottom of France was asked whether I was VFR or IFR. This was at about FL150 and in CAS, etc. It was an amazingly stupid question. But it made me wonder… the squawk issued by Bergerac was 1000 which is itself bizarre. Yet they gave me a normal sounding IFR clearance. I reckon I got away with whatever was going on because
At lower levels, it is very possible to get a Eurocontrol-validated IFR flight plan but one which is simply dumped by one or more ATC units along the route. In the UK, this is an old issue and is easily done, but I don’t think people are used to it on mainland Europe.
Sometimes, the waypoint list which I get emailed by EuroFPL mysteriously doesn’t arrive. I have had them investigate this and they confirm it wasn’t even generated, but why? They never found out. Another indicator perhaps that something is going to break on your flight?
Many people file low down (mostly because they don’t have oxygen) and this opens up the potential for “invalid validation”, perhaps.
I have also had – again in France – a departure clearance which was obviously VFR, on a Eurocontrol IFR flight plan, when I departed about a minute too late (EOBT+31 mins or whatever). Nothing was said. The flight was back to the UK so they probably didn’t care. No way would I have had an IFR clearance on that flight, but got away with it because I flew at ~FL100 and they had radar contact. It’s fun to think how far you can get with you thinking you are IFR and the ATCO thinking you are VFR!
And on VFR flights, in say France you never really know because they don’t use the phrase “cleared to enter CAS”; they just say e.g. “radar contact”. In some countries, even that would be on the limit of their English “proficiency”. That is a recipe for confusion further down the road.
And on VFR flights, in say France you never really know because they don’t use the phrase “cleared to enter CAS”; they just say e.g. “radar contact”. In some countries, even that would be on the limit of their English “proficiency”. That is a recipe for confusion further down the road.
In these situations, I always just repeat what I think they want me to do, and if they don’t protest, I go ahead.
That’s what I do also to cover my back on the tape 
but it’s highly dodgy if the controller can’t speak the language (the standard Spanish/Italian ATC procedure is to ignore radio calls which he/she cannot understand, so no evidence of the lack of proficiency is recorded on the tape) and it could just propagate the misinterpreted clearance.
SQK1000 is used when they use your Mode-S ID to identify you rather then the squawk code.
Schiphol (EHAM) is issueing them to airliners flying to CDG etc.
The definition of Squawk code 1000: IFR GAT flights operating in designated Mode S Airspace
Peter, could it just have been a slip of the tongue by that French controller? He meant to ask you “VMC or IMC” but said “VFR or IFR”?
the squawk issued by Bergerac was 1000 which is itself bizarre.
You will get that if you are IFR in an ATC sector that is equipped for Mode S, like in Paris FIR. There are other facilities in France that will ask you to change your squawk at first contact. IIRC it is the case of Nantes APP, and Rennes APP.
Sometimes, the waypoint list which I get emailed by EuroFPL mysteriously doesn’t arrive. I have had them investigate this and they confirm it wasn’t even generated, but why? They never found out. Another indicator perhaps that something is going to break on your flight?
If the waypoint list is not received, you are indeed cruising for a bruising. In that case your FPL has not been filed. This happened to me departing IFR from LFPT (as usual). TWR did not have my flightplan. I called the FSS (or what would have been called the Flight Service Station in the US, which in France is called the BRIA) to inquire about my flightplan. They chewed me out for using EuroFPL (instead of the government issued Olivia)and told me that the day they would be closed down because they no longer could justify their existence (no longer had any FPLs to process), we would not have anyone to turn to. They were however nice enough to re-enter it manually with almost the same EOBT. I subsequently called TWR for my startup clearance and the rest of the flight was a non-event.
So now the waypoint list is the first thing I look for. Since I normally will file my flightplan within 90 minutes of EOBT, I normally receive it within a few minutes of filing. When I happen to file the previous day, it seems to have taken a lot longer.
I have also had – again in France – a departure clearance which was obviously VFR, on a Eurocontrol IFR flight plan, when I departed about a minute too late (EOBT+31 mins or whatever).
This is strange because, on an I plan, before even starting the engine you should call TWR or clearance/delivery, state your type of flightplan, your destination and request your startup clearance. At that point, if your flightplan is suspended, or ATC do not have it, they will tell you, and you will need to send a delay message or re-file.
And on VFR flights, in say France you never really know because they don’t use the phrase “cleared to enter CAS”; they just say e.g. “radar contact”.
This is perfectly normal, and one of the greatest things about IFR (outside the UK apparently). Once you have been accepted into the IFR system, you should need no further clearance. This is also the way it is in the US.
In some countries, even that would be on the limit of their English “proficiency”.
I am very happy to say that this is definitely no longer the case in France. As a native French speaker I could probably use French phraseology, but I do not feel comfortable with it, so I normally will stick to English and have not had any problems so far.
In that case your FPL has not been filed
I had the ACK, which is normally good enough. Very few pilots get the waypoint list – that is something that only some of the “modern” online services give you. EuroFPL deliver the ACK by SMS, within seconds of filing the FP.
This is perfectly normal, and one of the greatest things about IFR
I said “VFR”
You will get that if you are IFR in an ATC sector that is equipped for Mode S, like in Paris FIR
Sure; the Big Q is what happens if/when you exit the Mode S capable sector. That I would guess is what happened. Presuambly you should get a new squawk.
could it just have been a slip of the tongue by that French controller? He meant to ask you “VMC or IMC” but said “VFR or IFR”?
Could be, but one would expect an ATCO to know the difference (even if many pilots confuse the two ).
They chewed me out for using EuroFPL (instead of the government issued Olivia)and told me that the day they would be closed down because they no longer could justify their existence (no longer had any FPLs to process), we would not have anyone to turn to.
The weather briefing guy at Toussus tried to make me sign a petition to keep the met office, about two years ago. I guess it’s been closed down by now. Germany like France still maintains a costly manual correction desk for flight plans filed via the official site. They get no chance to do it for flight plans filed through other means. I bet these services will disappear in the not too distant future. If these guys operated Google, there would be staff handling each search request manually…
I had the ACK, which is normally good enough. Very few pilots get the waypoint list – that is something that only some of the “modern” online services give you. EuroFPL deliver the ACK by SMS, within seconds of filing the FP.
I get the waypoint list from EuroFPL by E-mail every time. The one time I did not get it, the FPL was never to be found and I had to refile.
I said “VFR”
Yes you did… Sorry. VFR they would normally say something like “Radar contact. Report xxx”. In the US they would say “Cleared to enter Bravo airspace”, but only for class B airspace which seems to be something very special over there. For entry into class D they would say “Radar contact 8 miles east for Livermore. Report Mormon Temple” which is inside class D.
It sounds like there are differences in phraseology between UK, US and continental Europe, or at least different practices.
Sure; the Big Q is what happens if/when you exit the Mode S capable sector. That I would guess is what happened. Presuambly you should get a new squawk.
As I said, you will get a new code on first contact.
Could be, but one would expect an ATCO to know the difference (even if many pilots confuse the two ).
This kind of reminds me of the VFR on Top discussion… I am also inclined to believe it was a slip of the tongue. It is the only explanation that makes sense.
For entry into class D they would say “Radar contact 8 miles east for Livermore. Report Mormon Temple” which is inside class D.
That, however, is a specific and formal US deviation from ICAO. I don’t know if they have filed a difference to ICAO on it, but they should have done. Whereas France does require a clearance to enter CAS – they just can’t be bothered to say it.
I am not going to complain but one can’t have it both ways i.e. not use the phrase “cleared to” and then complain when somebody busts some airspace.
