How often do you have to hold?

Rich wrote:

Haha! Were you there about a month ago when it was taxi hell as everyone arrived at once? I did remember a UK a/c arriving just after us but the reg wasn’t familiar. We didn’t share a taxi with anyone that day though, although quite a few people piled into the one before us. We had quite a nightmare getting a cab back too, as I recall. I think I’ll leave Deauville for out-of-season in future.

No, it was probably a year or so ago. You had Andrew Wallis with you.

Sebastian_G wrote:

But first there is no information about the altitude. But the higher you get up the more IAS decreases on the same power setting (the aircraft has got a turbo) so the margin to the stall speed decreases significantly. I think a fixed holding speed simply does not work it should be defined by altitude.

You mean a fixed holding power setting doesn’t work, because the stall always occurs at the same IAS regardless of altitude. But as you write, the prop efficiency decreases with decreasing air density, so you will get less IAS out of the same power setting at a higher altitude. I wonder how significant this effect is, though. Do you have some numbers?

When I went to train some holds, radial tracking and approaches with an SR22 + instructor a few months ago, he reminded me not to get too slow in the hold since their SOP was to always keep 1.5 Vso in cruise as a margin. That would put us at 111 kts at least which I can live with, but I think he wanted 120 kts. Which is also fine because the Cirrus has some kind of “step” in the wing profile at around 120 kts, and if you fall below this speed you really need a lot of power (50 % or more instead of around 30 % in my experience) just to keep your slow speed. So I can imagine that 120 to 125 knots is more efficient in a hold than 110 or 115 knots. In the end, you look for the power setting with the least gph that will keep you safely in the air.

Rich wrote:

It got me thinking: how often do people end up actually holding in a real-world flight (i.e. not for training)?

Strangely enough, the last hold I had was inbound to Deauville behind you! I think we were just slightly behind you and catching up slowly, so we went round the hold once for spacing and then we were vectored in behind you. We shared a taxi into Trouville.

Small world.

I thought every aircraft manual has to specify a maximum endurance power setting or speed?

Oh yes our manual had such a speed. So I looked it up and the PA46 Mirage manual said “Long Range Cruise 2200 20” Hg 11 GPH Lean to Peak"

But first there is no information about the altitude. But the higher you get up the more IAS decreases on the same power setting (the aircraft has got a turbo) so the margin to the stall speed decreases significantly. I think a fixed holding speed simply does not work it should be defined by altitude.

And second we had to turn somehow to do that racetrack pattern. But the manual said nothing about those standard turns is the hold. We tried using the autopilot but the thing flew us close to stall trying to turn and hold altitude. So we flew manually which worked better but we had to do very shallow turns to hold altitude.

Before this event I alway entered holds at low altitude with plenty of speed and everything was easy. But on this occasion where we really had to reduce our fuel burn for a long hold things got much more complicated.

My bottom line is that standard 4 minute holds are bad for the overall fuel consumption and also for passenger comfort. If you really have to hold for a long time in a piston plane asking ATC for the lowest possible level and more space to do shallow turns and longer straights works out much better.

So rare here in the US that the FAA proficiency of 6 approaches and 1 hold always falls short on the hold part. I ask for holds whenever I can just to satisfy the proficiency req’s.

I was asked to hold at Angelo VRP on approach to Thessaloniki LGTS two days ago on Saturday Aug 20, number 4 after a bunch of passenger jets. But they landed in quick succession. Worked out under 10 minutes.

The only other non training holds I recall were flying into Frankfurt Hahn (probably 15 minutes) and between Grosetto and Pisa just off the west coast of Italy (near Piombino). The only published hold of the three was at Frankfurt Hahn.

I have held at:

inbound Schiphol
Luxembourg
Bordeaux
Straubing
Zurich
Girona
Oxford

My answer to the OP is “very rarely in normal flying A-B”.

I get them at Lydd EDMD where I do a regular ILS for practice (without landing), I got one recently at LFAT on the GPS approach (because another IFR arrival was arriving on the same day ), and I got one at Zurich LSZH a few years ago.

One should nevertheless study the sids and stars and approach plates to see where holds are published, so they are not a total shock.

The TB20 POH has a holding power setting; IIRC 1800rpm and some low MP like 18". It is about 100-110kt.