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Logistics of flying in Europe

Could this not happen anywhere, USA included, C210 Flyer ?

With VFR, there is no implicit enroute clearance, so one has to preplan the entire flight, outside CAS and outside any restricted/prohibited areas.

Only when one has done that, one can set out on the flight and try to get clearances through those various areas.

What this means is that, for VFR flight, one tends to preplan two routes. One which requires no enroute clearances, and one which is probably shorter and which does.

That is just how VFR works.

I know a lot of VFR pilots don’t do that. Some don’t preplan anything, some use tablet tools and hope to work it out as they go along. But then you need to be prepared to either do a 180 or ask for an IFR clearance (if you have an IR).

No person on the ground can give you an assurance that a particular such area is OK to transit.

France is generally easy but I have had all sorts of nonsense there. Last year, FL190 and only just above buildups, unable to climb any higher (ISA+10 or so), and with a wall of CBs to my left, I had ATC pressing me really hard to turn left, saying that some military commander was going berserk. The bottom line is that they knew that “to avoid” cannot be argued with but they still tried very hard to press me to kill myself. That was near Bordeaux; I don’t recall the unit. But this kind of thing can and does happen anywhere. One of the most important things is to keep the decisionmaking in the cockpit – not something a pilot is normally taught at school and most are petrified of ATC.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

It certainly could and does I have first hand experience. Flying down the coast of Maine. There was a very active cold front over the Coast moving out to sea around 50 kts. It was 100 mile line of solid Red radar returns on the MX wx. Out to sea on my left was a MOA. Asked the controller to enter the MOA which was hot but got refused. Explained to him that it was certain death to the right which was getting closer or a possibility of death to the right. He got the message. I was cleared into the MOA.

In the US if you are VFR and need due to wx file IFR more often than not the controller will help unless they are very busy. Otherwise they tell you to contact FSS. That can be a pain especially if you have to use a remote station like a vor to receive on.

Whats the procedure here in EASA land. Are all countries the same or does it vary by nation? Do you get a charge for air filling?

In the US what works sometimes if the controller is not too cooperative is to raise ones voice a few octaves to simulate a heightened stress level. This method has given me a more favorable outcome at times.

Last Edited by C210_Flyer at 28 Jan 12:03
KHTO, LHTL

Do you get a charge for air filling?

No because it is essentially impossible. Pop up IFR doesn’t exist in Europe.

EGTK Oxford

All the more reason to file IFR.

KHTO, LHTL
No because it is essentially impossible. Pop up IFR doesn’t exist in Europe.

It does and SERA requires all ATC units to provide the service. We see it on autorouter when they do it

Whats the procedure here in EASA land. Are all countries the same or does it vary by nation? Do you get a charge for air filling?

A difficult situation. Theoretically, in-air filing of IFR flight plans is possible. In Europe every IFR flight through controlled airspace requires a flightplan which in most countries needs to be filed at least 30 minutes prior EOBT in order that processing through the system can be guaranteed. Of course we alll know that in reality this can be almost instantaneous (see the autorouter on this site for example) especially if it is done by an ATC controller. On some routes there are flow restrictions, in summer more than in winter due to holiday trafiic and thunderstorms. So even if you can get your flight plan in while already airborne, you might catch a slot (CTOT as it is called here) which could mean holding for a long time until you will receive your actual clearance. Over the years I have air-filed IFR plans a few times and it always worked, but every time I have been told off by someone that this is not the way to to it. There are stories around the internet of pilots who have been prosecuted in Germany for filing IFR plans in the air on the grounds of insufficient flight preparation. Personally I have not talked to anybody who was actually prosecuted. Something that almost always works is getting a “practise instrument approach” when on a VFR (training) flight because that can be handled by the approach controller alone without waking up Brussels in the process.

EDDS - Stuttgart

Pop up IFR doesn’t exist in Europe.

One cannot dispose of such a topic with a one-liner

Popup IFR is possible but the availability depends on many factors, and if you can get it, it could take quite a while to get it organised so it may actually not be of any use in some cases.

One thing which is sure true is that for any IFR flight in the Eurocontrol system, some ATC unit has to insert at least a fragment of the route into the computer system i.e. they cannot just do it ad-hoc with just a radio contact. And different units have different capabilities for doing this – in addition to whether they “like” doing it.

The UK does have a capability but they have not paid for the extra software modules (reportedly) so they really don’t like doing it (and there are other issues in the UK, to do with the near-watertight separation of London Control from non-Eurocontrol stuff down below).

In France, they have the capability and can usually do it but it can take 5-10 mins, which is probably no good for wx avoidance (google the report on N2195B for one example).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Pop up IFR doesn’t exist in Europe.

Definitely wrong. I did just that a couple of months ago when I couldn’t get down from VFR on top and when I was clear of clouds i asked the controller if that was “a problem” and he said (on the radio) that I was “welcome any time” and that they had “absolutley no problem witha pop up clearance”. That was Munich radar, and i was very close to Munich airport.

The whole procedure took 1 minute: “G-YORC request IFR pick-up for cloud breaking” .. “roger, G-YORC, turn left heading 120, descend 5000, QNHIFR starts now …. report clear of clouds”

Last Edited by Flyer59 at 28 Jan 12:20

That example, Flyer 59, is however not a full entry into the Eurocontrol system, to be continued for another X hundred nm.

“Popup IFR”, in the US terminology, means getting you into the IFR system fully.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Over the years I have air-filed IFR plans a few times and it always worked, but every time I have been told off by someone that this is not the way to to it. There are stories around the internet of pilots who have been prosecuted in Germany for filing IFR plans in the air on the grounds of insufficient flight preparation.

The situation in Germany has changed with SERA. Before, AFIL was only in case of “unforeseen circumstances” and limited to flights within the German FIRs. Now, AFIL is a standard part of ATC service provided in SERA countries. Everything else about the difficulties/impracticalities applies of course. In the US, the IFR system is much simpler and there are dedicated AFIL staff so you can’t compare the situation.

That example, Flyer 59, is however not a full entry into the Eurocontrol system, to be continued for another X hundred nm.

Germany does that, IFR clearances within its own FIR without going via Eurocontrol and I know that Eurocontrol hates it. They want to forbid member countries to do such things but so far without much success. From what I was told, Germany is the worst in that regard.

Last Edited by achimha at 28 Jan 12:25
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