Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

Loneliest cruising altitude

Am I the only one to find all the national differences in airspace and air law exhausting? And I haven't even flown abroad yet. Would I find it less daunting if I had? Is it any easier from this perspective to fly IFR with an instrument rating?

I've flown VFR throughout many countries in Europe during the summer months the last 7-8 years and it is certainly doable. Some countries are harder than others though due to their airspace.

The planning is more demanding in regards to find a route that will work VFR, due to airspace restrictions, R- and D-areas etc. If you are flying in a congested areas then the work load during flight with getting clearances and information regarding active R/D-areas can be high.

It is very dependent on the country you fly in though, Scandinavia is easy and also Germany. The hardest VFR flights for me has been southern France. Cannes->Dijon and Mallorca -> Chambery were both a challenge.

Regarding the differences, get an account to EAD Basic and check the relevant parts of the AIP (such as ENR 1.1, 1.2, 1.8).

Am I the only one to find all the national differences in airspace and air law exhausting?

I dont think so. I have only flown in the UK and France (VFR), but certainly for my recent trip to La Rochelle, I spent many hours researching the differences so there were no 'surprises' mid-air. As much as I would love the challenge of flying to Spain or something, I can well imagine the research time would exceed the flight time (though of course the 'research time' diminishes as one gets more experienced at these things)

When I called up Scottish info the other week while returning home, I was at VFR in the Auster at FL85. The controller at the other end sniggered slightly when he asked me to confirm this altitude.

Unfortunately I never think of witicisms on the spur of the moment (it always occurs to me about 10 minutes later) but I wanted to say "It's because I'm afraid of water" (about to coast out at St Bees Head for the Isle of Man. From FL85, I'm out of gliding range of land for only a trivially short amount of time. When going over water I want as much altitude as possible! Even if it doesn't keep me within gliding range it gives me a LOT more time to make mayday calls and prepare for a ditching and try for an engine restart. It really surprises me how many people fly across the sea at 2000 feet even when there's no airspace reason stopping you from going higher).

Andreas IOM

I don't think foreign trips are hard. Anybody with the IQ to get through the PPL exams can read the map and read the controlled airspace (CAS) labels, etc. There is no rocket science. You buy the charts and draw the route on them. It's really basic!

The UK PPL training establishment likes to pretend there is some quantum leap in complexity, but that's because they (mostly) teach only the most basic flying skills.

Look at my VFR Europe presentation here.

I think the most basic point I make there is that international flight is not really different to domestic flight, but you do actually have to do the stuff which you should be doing domestically but most people don't.

IFR is certainly much simpler in terms of planning, and other stuff, but getting an IR is a fair bit of work and the majority of European pilots will never be interested in doing that. Also an IR has very little meaning unless you own your own plane and it is quite a capable one. IFR also exposes you to various flight hazards e.g. icing is a potential hazard on practically every flight in Europe even in the summer.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Am I the only one to find all the national differences in airspace and air law exhausting? And I haven't even flown abroad yet. Would I find it less daunting if I had? Is it any easier from this perspective to fly IFR with an instrument rating?

Well, airspace structure can be daunting. Have a look at the VFR map of Belgium. Half of the country is Class C airspace. I know Dutch pilots who reroute via Germany on their way to France, because they find it too hard to cross the Brussels area. VFR if you plan to cross controlled airspace (Class D or up), you need to be prepared for the situation where you don't get a clearance (have a plan B OCAS available).

IFR on Airways is the hidden secret in GA flying. It's dead easy. You have no idea of the airspace classes you are crossing. You will be separated from other traffic. Before you depart you'll get a clearance to fly your route as filed. You can fly as high as you want. You can fly through clouds. You won't be bothered with things like para dropping or restricted areas. For serious "going places" in Europe, IR is the way to go...

Am I the only one to find all the national differences in airspace and air law exhausting? And I haven't even flown abroad yet. Would I find it less daunting if I had? Is it any easier from this perspective to fly IFR with an instrument rating?

It is Class C above FL100. Class E is controlled airspace, but you don't need a clearance VFR, in C you do need a clearance. This is why he dropped me into E. Nothing in the NOTAMS. There is no map of sectors, because they use dynamic sector allocation in that area. I'm pretty sure I climbed back up in the next sector.

United Kingdom

OK; just plotted that EDQT GED BIGSU BEDSI ROLIS...

About 10nm after ROLIS you have Class E up to FL100. Not sure what class is above FL100 but normally one CAS's top is another CAS's base.

But with VFR all bets are off. There is no clearance whatsoever. You get what you get.

What were the enroute notams I wonder (a Narrow Route Briefing)?

Once, over Italy, I was cleared A - B - C (VORs, in CAS) and when I got to B I got handed to another controller who told me to get out of CAS. He didn't care about any previous clearance. He just wanted me out. So I turned left 90 degrees and carried on down the middle of the Adriatic, all the way to Corfu.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

When: 11.06.2013. VFR. Route: EDQT GED DCT TOBAK Z671 BEDSI Z671 ROLIS Z658 EMGOD .... After 1st contact direct GED FL120 then 170 after GED. Direct BIGSU, just before BIGSU the controller demanded me to descent to FL 95, due to refusal from next sector. I told him I'm unable to comply due to clouds (tops were about FL80, but hard to tell from above). He said I need to descent within 20 miles. I eventually gave in, went down to FL95, changed to FIS and asked for higher. Got a direct DODEN with a new squak and back to FL170. The next controller asked whether I want a shortcut and shortly after that I received a heading which was a DCT to LNO. Belgium was no issue.

United Kingdom

I had a funny occurrence a 2 weeks back. In FL170, the controller told me the next sector will not accept me and I have to descent to FL95 within the next 20 miles. I tried the weather joker, but they insisted. So I went down to FL95 for about 50 miles and climbed back up later.

Yeah, I'd like to see some, ahem, details posted of where, when, route filed, etc.

The only way I can think of this could be done on a Eurocontrol filed IFR flight is if there was an airspace issue on the day (sudden mil activity e.g.) or one filed an off-airway DCT which went through something like that (which Eurocontrol probably won't pick up on but you can't actually fly it).

I would also ask details of what is going on. The PIC is entitled to e.g. not descend into icing conditions, on a filed route, no matter how hard ATC insists. Normally ATC would offer a re-route. Imagine doing this to Air France, A320, Heathrow to Brussels, etc.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
45 Posts
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top