Looking for a Mooney - advice welcome

I was merely basing that on what Bosco posted:

The typical 200 hp aircraft, when close to MTOW (which is often the case when “touring”, i.e. lots of fuel and also some gear and baggage) are not really good for climbing much above FL100.
Sure, if it’s blue skies and one has endless time, one can climb these aircraft to FL130, at minimal climb rates. But the point is one might be IMC (at least partially) in the last third of the climb (and that’s where one will also encounter a bit of ice during most of the year), so you want a “healthy” climb rate, even above say FL80.

I don’t know Mooneys but I know a PA28-181 (Archer) gets to FL140, at MTOW, ISA. A PA28-161 gets to FL120. You do have to know about leaning, of course.

I agree that if you can do FL170-180 then a turbo is worth a lot less.

But they can’t. They will linger up there, at the most.

For practical purposes, I call the “ceiling” if any aircraft that level where the climb rate drops below 200 fpm. Again: if you are IMC, you usually will get some at those levels, and then a (potential) 200 fpm climb rate will mean that the aircraft will be done climbing.

Maybe just semantics, but that my point of view. Others are entitled to theirs.

I say: IFR, one can never have too much climb rate.

P.S. Both Tiger and original Arrows are 180 horses.

For a nice comparison between the 231 en 252 read this

I currently fly a 252 and as a non IR pilot it is a bit silly, but what the heck. Hope to start my IR theory soon.

Peter and Phillip,

according to the POH Performance tables, the 180 hp M20C has a service ceiling of 17’000 ft. In fact, I have been up there twice, both in conditions where DA was higher than that. Yes, it takes a while to get up there but at 15’000 ft I still had a climb rate of about 400 fpm, at MTOW and in summer. The POH shows a rate of climb of 200 fpm at 15000 ft at MTOW and at 19000 ft at 1000 kg. Absolute ceiling is indicated as 20’000 ft.

The M20J has a POH service ceiling of 18’000 ft, so does the E and F model. 1000 ft more probably due to the 20 hp more and injected engines rather than carburetted as well as the RAM AIR option they have. The J Model shows a rate of climb of 200 fpm at 17000 ft and indicates a service ceiling of 18500 ft at MTOW, at 2300 lb it shows a 200 fpm climb rate at 21000 ft and a service celing of 23000 ft.

The original Arrow was indeed 180 hp, the Arrow II and III was 200. The Arrow III POH shows a rate of climb of 200 ft at 12000 ft at MTOW. It does not indicate a service ceiling (that I could find).

The AA5A Cheetah (otherwise known as Lisa) reaches 200 fpm at around 10k ft at MTOW. That is with 160 hp. I could not find a POH for the AA5B Tiger, according to one artice I trust it can reach FL150 with patience. (If anyone has a Tiger POH in PDF he can send me, I’d be happy to add it to my collection).

The TB20’s POH does not even give these figures, it stops at 12000 ft, where, under ISA, it should still climb with about 400 fpm at 3000 lb. Extrapolating, I get 200 ft at about 14000 ft DA. Yet, Peter has flown it several times up to 17000 ft.

All I am saying is that in the question of whether to go for a M20K or M20J, the J can do the job most of the time, not all the time. And it can do it cheaper and with less overhead cost than the K. The max altitude it can reach according POH of between 18000 and 23000 ft should be enough for most airways and many weather conditions.

Of course: All these planes are NOT for icing conditions. None of them is FIKI or even non FIKI de-iced. They are not for “heavy” IFR, IMC in freezing conditions. So Boscomantico’s concern is very valid. If a non turbo plane encouters even light icing while near its service ceiling, this will mean descending, not climbing through, whereas a turbocharged plane will have the power reserves to fly through such a layer with 1000 fpm at 18000 ft (M20K). Again, if one plans to fly high, turbos are without any question the answer. However, most of northern and most of Southern Europe do not require these extreme altitudes normally, it is just the Alpine chain where a turbo charged airplane is definitly much in favour.

That is what one has to think about when deciding for one’s personal mission and finances. Seeing what people do even with 160 hp Cheetahs in IFR tells me that a J model (or even a C) can do the same or quite a bit more if needed without having to go into the realms of the turbocharger.

My only Mooney time is in a 201 – delightful. But the retro bias in me prefers the original Mark 21 with manual gear/flaps and the slightly Coupe second window.

http://fitsnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/mooney-m-21.jpg

Exactly Robert…the C is a really cool looking plane….Mooney Driver don’t get too het up….I daresay most Mooney detractors have never flown a Mooney

Yet, Peter has flown it several times up to 17000 ft.

FL200 actually

FL190 is common, in ISA conditions.

I don’t have a POH handy but the G-reg POH mentions FL200 while the N-reg POH mentions FL180 – IIRC due to the ceilings being defined as +50fpm and +100fpm respectively.

However, during the summer (when most of us fly most) you typically get ISA+10 to ISA+15 and that knocks some 1000-2000ft off the ceiling.

However I don’t want to de-rail a thread about Mooneys

whereas a turbocharged plane will have the power reserves to fly through such a layer

It depends heavily on the layer! If e.g. your prop ices up properly, you are stuffed no matter what.

There is another bit of strategy to throw into the pot: in stratus cloud, you aren’t going to get icing below about -15C, and realistically it is very unlikely below about -12C. In situations where I could not avoid IMC in the climb or enroute, I managed to depart on a heading on which there was enough clear air to climb to a temperature below these, and thus far that has always worked.

A good looking M20C with low times and decent avionics (and a landing accident in 1994) has just been added to Planecheck: Link

I’m considering selling my N reg Mooney M20E, send me an e-mail to [email protected] if you are interested.

It’s one of the latest M20E’s 1975 built, nearly 4000 hours total time and I have done about 800 hours in the last 5 years since overhauling it with Nicholson McClaren. 3 Blade prop, good avionics, GAMI injectors. I cruise at 120 Kts on 21-23 Ltr’s per hour lean of peak.