NCYankee wrote:
It depends on the type of ADS-B Out installed in a US aircraft
Like this: Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) section 91.227 or AC No. 20-165B (or replacement)
arj1 wrote:
LeSving, should this be in some hard law? AIP is usually just an extraction from it (and not the law).
I have never read a law that goes into this kind of details regarding airspace requirements. As far as I understand, it’s up to the competent authority/airspace operator to set the requirements. The law only states that requirements are to be set and made public.
LeSving wrote:
Not according to AIP.
Usually when the is a difference between AIP and the law, the AIP is more strict. This seems an unusual case of the opposite. (Well, maybe not unusual for customs and immigration.) But of course if Norwegian authorities don’t enforce the EU regulation in question, then it is moot.
The US allows both Mode A/C and Mode S transponders. There is no indication that this will change
As I keep saying, this tells us that Mode S may well be desirable for various reasons, but the old one (the 1960s stuff mentioned above) is not one of them.
All aircraft likely to be flown outside the US should buy a 1090 MHz Mode S ES ADS-B out solution.
In reality there is most likely no problem because UAT aircraft in the US are usually not suitable for transatlantic trips anyway and the others will have Mode S ES.
It can actually be a problem – one can fly beyond US borders without crossing any ocean and a substantial proportion of pilots doing it prefer UAT in order to maintain anonymous mode, which other than low cost is the main design attribute of UAT.
Mexico requires ADS-B OUT in the same or similar airspace classes that the US requires, but does not allow UAT. AOPA has tried unsuccessfully to turn this around, but at least for now non-Mode S ADS-B (UAT equipped) aircraft must operate in Class D airspace or lower, under 10,000 ft. Canada is rolling out ADS-B regs at a slower pace but will eventually be more restrictive than Mexico, for example they plan to eventually require Mode S based ADS-B within Class D airspace.
Mexican airspace is much different than US. Most of Mexico is class G below 19,500 and UAT is only usable to below 18,000. ADS-B really only affects a tiny portion of Mexico for the UAT piston crowd.
Mexican airspace is much different than US. Most of Mexico is class G below 19,500
That’s correct, even though the application of ADS-B by airspace class is very similar to the US. Also, and I should have been clearer on this point, Mode S based ADS-B is required over 10,000 ft only in Mexican Class E, not class G, plus a requirement near Mexico City.
Bathman wrote:
ADSB out … so there isn’t really enough benefit for me to justify the expense.
Sebastian_G wrote:
Please reconsider. You make yourself visible to everyone else. After all at night on the street the little lights of a bicycle usually are of limited use to see the road but they improve your safety a lot because everybody else can see you much better! The same applies to ADS-B out. Please put in that effort. It might protect you from beeing run over by somebody else. If you also want ADS-B in get a cheap portable device.
And there lies the rub. I brought a 250 quid SkyEcho brand new and second hand SkyEcho’s for 250 quid and I see a real benefit ADSB in and out with traffic displayed on EasyVFR.
As I get a real benefit I have brought into that and as a plus everyone else benefits as well. Mode S transponder 4K fitted and exactly what benefit do I see?
Bathman wrote:
And there lies the rub. I brought a 250 quid SkyEcho brand new and second hand SkyEcho’s for 250 quid and I see a real benefit ADSB in and out with traffic displayed on EasyVFR.
I think the key here is that the certified IN will not see you, and not all the uncertified IN solutions will see you either.
If you have Mode-S or ES installed with a GPS source, then pretty much everyone should be able to see you.
Airborne_Again wrote:
Usually when the is a difference between AIP and the law, the AIP is more strict. This seems an unusual case of the opposite.
Not really. It depends on the scope and definitions, and to whom the requirements apply. What is the “Single European Sky” anyway? and what has it to do with GA?
Read this 1207/2011 (for the first time) and the requirements for the air navigation service provider is Mode C and Mode A. ANNEX I in the regulation. There is no requirements for the air navigation service provider to “read” Mode S or ADS-B. However, the catch is that the airborne functions are compliant with the requirements in Annex II (which is Mode S and ADS-B), but also Mode A and Mode C implicitly.
It’s much weirder than I thought. There is no requirements for Mode S or ADS-B in any airspace in the regulations. This “Single European Sky” works perfectly well without Mode S or ADS-B. In fact, that it shall work just fine without Mode S and ADS-B is in itself a requirement of the output of the surveillance chain as they put it. At least in principle that is correct, but each particular air navigation service provider may perhaps use data from Mode S and ADS-B exclusively, providing that they provide an output according to spec.
Article 5 specify the requirements of the operators of aircraft, and this is as a minimum Mode S. This means of course that a navigation service provider may change his mind over night and suddenly require Mode S, and may do it for no apparent reason. EASA in a nutshell.
Anyway, the AIP is correct, and it’s fully in accordance with 1207/2011. Avinor don’t need anyone to have Mode S, it’s not a requirement they have.
NCYankee wrote:
AFAIK, Mode S Radars don’t process the ES data.
Maybe not in the US but they certainly do in Europe. I was involved in upgrading a KingAir B350 quite a few years ago and very quickly we had a report of incorrect pre-selected altitude coming back from ATC.
