Exactly – your geo location is stored every ~ 10 mins together with the SIM card ID and the IMEI, every SMS is logged in its entirety, every call is logged by numbers, SIM card IDs, IMEIs and geo location… all the time you are flying too. The logs are very compact and are retained for ever, and have been generated for the last 15-20 years.
Silvaire wrote:
Jesse, I was talking about tracking movements and thereby the activity of individuals, not what they own. Government already knows what I own… and charges me property tax to the tune of about $20K per year in total. They haven’t yet taxed me very much on my movements, because they don’t know them.
I have the feeling there is a different privacy feeling on others. From you I understand it is mainly on government level? In Europe it seem to be more on data that is available to the public.
For example when aircraft A is flying from airport B to airport C and back to airport B. That doesn’t say that much, other then that aircraft B is mostly located on this airport. Under FAA system you can see who the owner or holder is of aircraft A, including their adress etc. On some registeries you can even search on owner, so that you can see if one has multiple aircraft. I don’t see why you can’t be bothered by the last example, why you can be the first.
Airborne_Again wrote:
If people are really concerned about “big brother”, then they should be more worried about cellphones and credit/charge cards than about transponders.
Agreed. And “voluntary” sharing of information on social media, which can be mixed with lots of other information.
I have the feeling there is a different privacy feeling on others
Yes I think so. The UK has not been invaded since IIRC year 1066 so people who choose to not use transponders do it (a) due to cost and (b) to not get busted for busting CAS. Other countries have a much more recent history of issues with liberty so people there will have other motivations; I hear this all the time speaking to other pilots.
But unless you go totally electronically invisible you will still be tracked everywhere via the phone (actually anything containing a SIM card), social media, etc, and the CAA can get your phone location log with a court order. Google tracks your android phone all the time; you can disable that but then if you lose the phone…? You can delete the track log but that just removes it from your view. Like all emails you delete from your gmail account, google keeps that stuff for ever, available to law enforcement…
Peter wrote:
But unless you go totally electronically invisible you will still be tracked everywhere via the phone (actually anything containing a SIM card), social media, etc, and the CAA can get your phone location log with a court order
But the general public can’t. The UK government isn’t likely to be interested in my email logs nor my phone logs (and for the former they’d have to ask me for them anyway, since I have my own mail server).
Any member of the general public however can track your aircraft movements with Mode-S/ADS-B. There lies the difference.
There is a range of radar services in the UK, both civilian, defence related, and airborne defence related.
Thinking you are invisible because you are not using a transponder is naive – also ATC usually have a police helicopter nearby which can help identify a strange, slow moving target. The faster ones, if considered a threat might get a visit by a QRF jet.
Jesse wrote:
I have the feeling there is a different privacy feeling on others. From you I understand it is mainly on government level? In Europe it seem to be more on data that is available to the public.
I’m actually not interested in privacy per se at all, I have little concern if other people or companies know what I do and where I go – although I realize that is a major concern for companies in competition. For myself I’m more interested in the tangible effects of a record of my activities created by government. In a free society where there is little chance or history of government directly removing liberty and opportunity by physical force, tax and money is the indirect route and where there is a route they will use it.
Peter wrote:
I was writing from the European POV, illustrating that privacy is not assured anyway. Plane spotters are all over Europe – at least over the main active GA countries.
Well, there is a huge qualitative difference between a plane spotter publishing a single datapoint, or someone publishing the complete flight path anytime and anywhere. At my home airfield there are very few spotters and my database of published pictures of our planes count 24 pictures – including all flights not done by me – just the aircraft. I expect it will be more frequent with the lake, but I could not make out any movement with these data. All my business trips, test flying and flight training was unspotted.
An example: The flying boat i just bought patrolled the north sea for environmental protection and they did a lot against those people who cleaned their tankers and dumped the stuff into the north sea. The impact of the Deutsche Küstenwache e.V. was huge and there is still work left to do. If the polluters can see the patrolling aircraft coming up on FR24, we won’t have a chance to stop them. If we get spotted, the picture wouldn’t be anywhere near a “live” movement. Our only chance is to turn off the stuff, which is not that wise over the sea at all times. So unlike spotters, those sites compromise some forms of general aviation put to a use.
Peter wrote:
But unless you go totally electronically invisible you will still be tracked everywhere via the phone (actually anything containing a SIM card), social media, etc, and the CAA can get your phone location log with a court order. Google tracks your android phone all the time; you can disable that but then if you lose the phone…? You can delete the track log but that just removes it from your view. Like all emails you delete from your gmail account, google keeps that stuff for ever, available to law enforcement…
Well, unlike with sites like ADSBExchange, I have complete control over the data I share. I can turn off the phone, I have turned off all tracking (first things I do when setting up a new device is getting rid of E.T.-Mode) and I pay cash over card (getting weird looks in Scandinavia..). I post on Facebook what I want to post and don’t really use other social media plattforms. My ISP / phone provider does not make the data he needs to provide the service public and without legal steps even the police aren’t allowed to access them.
With sites like FR24 and ADSBExchange, many pilots do knot know that they are tracked and their aircraft can be traced years later on. They have no choice about the use of their data. And N113AC for instance is linked to a single pilot with great accuracy. At least FR24 promises to “not show” the data of an aircraft on request, but that doesn’t do anything good, as adsbexchange eloquently proves. And those people don’t care at all.
Can you imagine the outrage if the exact location of every car – many are traceable and do phone home by now – getting publicised in an ADSBExchange manner? Meaning by people who love THEIR privacy and not state any name nor those of the people who operate the feeding stations (probably because they know they would get sued) and treat the civil rights and privacy of OTHERS like dirt? Or what about a page that depicts the position of every cellphone at all times for everyone to see, without anyone using a cellphone knowing about it? In that case I’d go back to public phones and not being available all of the time.
Bottom line: Pages like FR24, OGN, FlightAware, ADSBExchange actively undermine the possible gain in flight safety possible by ADS-B and FLARM.
mh wrote:
Can you imagine the outrage if the exact location of every car
Won’t be long. I have been predicting the installation of government linked black boxes in production cars for a while and most are now fitted with GPS and ‘service assist’
The very next step will be tracking of road taxed cars, parking locations and speeding fines and then it’s a short step towards booking your journey start time as per a flight plan so that they can manage traffic flow and density.
No tax paid … car wont go.
No journey planned … no start.
Speeding …. automatic fine.
Parking like a t**t on the double yellow lines …… that’ll be £100 ( although this one I might support! )
Annual connection to the matrix will get a swift analysis of your driving style and an instant rebooking of your driving test if you dare to break the law once too often.
Nimbusgb wrote:
Speeding …. automatic fine.
Unlikely; if you have that kind of technology you will also have a speed limiter that strictly enforces the speed limit (so put the pedal to the floor and the car will still only do 30 in a 30). Although to be honest by then, it’ll all probably be driverless cars.
From here
Peter wrote:
aren’t bothered about the “privacy stuff” which makes people turn off Mode S
If the device would allow to use random IDs changed in random intervals, most privacy concerns would be settled.
Furthermore, not the people concerned about their privacy are the problem, but the people exploiting their data without asking, and without consent. But I guess the issue is chewed.
